Juror Number 3 interview covers why the verdict was what it was


184 Responses

  1. I’m sorry. I know this is not a popular opinion on this board. But that woman was all over the place. That’s what passes for “thoughtful juror” these days?? She couldn’t be sure that the baby was murdered?? Then later she says that if she were to convict Casey then she might be a “murderer too”.

  2. Dear Karma- please visit Casey Anthony before next Wednesday.
    Thank you

  3. I’m sad to say PMM that I think Casey will profit handsomely. She not only will be “free as a bird”, she will probably have book deals, movie deals, interview fees, and offers that I can’t even comprehend. Caylee will still be dead.

  4. imust- sad to say it but you are probably right. and they will hold the little bitch out of the main prison population for her own protection until she is released.
    If we ever needed to see karma work quickly, now is the time.

  5. No, she couldn’t be sure the child was murdered. Nobody EVER identified how that child died and they definitely didn’t prove who did it. They only proved that Casey is a major shitbag. I don’t understand how it is that we should think we execute people just because we Think they are guilty and because they are arrogant snots. This must be why more and more people are being released from prison after serving decades, only to find they didn’t do the crime. Each time that happens, we are reminded that in order to avoid a misscarriage of justice, we err on thh conservative side, which means we need some actual evidence when there is a body found. That’s what she is saying. No physical evidence and no witness is about as strong a “reasonable doubt” as can possibly exist.

  6. Uppity, the duct tape was hanging from her skull. The chloroform was detected in Casey’s trunk. She searched chloroform on her computer. They found similar duct tape in casey’s house. She did not report Caylee missing for 31 days and lied to those around her about where Caylee was….said she was with “Zanny the Nanny”. She’s not guilty because she’s an arrogant snot….she’s guilty because of the evidence that was there and the fact that as the baby’s mother, who was responsible for the baby’s life….unless she can show that someone else was caring for the child at the time of the disappearance….she DID IT. Geez. This isn’t a CSI show. THis is real life. So she didn’t shoot Caylee and leave the gun with her fingerprints on her nightstand as evidence.

  7. And by the way. NO mother would wait to report their child missing. Not even a bad mother. I don’t care that she was partying during the time….even if she was studying for the bar exam day and night or volunteering in a homeless shelter all day…..she would have reported her child missing. My daughter was lost in a department store a few minutes and I about had a heart attack. They locked down all the exits and brought all the managers…they were asking me about what she was wearing etc…and I felt the blood leave my face. Finally she poked her head from under a clothes rack and I took a breath. Casey is not normal. There is something seriously wrong with her. So perhaps she should have been put in a mental ward, but she certainly shouldn’t have been set free to profit off that poor baby’s death.

  8. I hope the Bulls in prison work fast.

  9. George did it. Only a former homicide detective would know about the benefits of using chloroform to cover up evidence.

  10. In ANY case you can throw up ridiculous arguments to say, “see! We can’t say who did it!!” That’s why it’s called “reasonable doubt”. Not “shadow of a doubt”. Yeah, she was abducted by ailens…that’s the ticket dude! PLease. A baby was killed, murdered by the person she loved and trusted the most to take care of her.

  11. No imust, you CAN’T say that in ANY case. Physical evidence doesn’t make that possible. There is no physical proof she did it. Or even what “It” was.

  12. I do agree with imust for the most part but I see what Upps is saying too. It is easy to see she did it if you are not on the jury. If you are on a jury it is very hard to rule against someone when a case has not been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. I was on a jury once and we quickly decided that it was all “he said this and the other guy said that” but no proof of any kind. The tough looking guy probably threw the first punch but who knows? We can’t convict someone in a court of law without proof.

  13. Okay. Let’s play what if. What if she really did Chloroform the child so she could go party, and she gave her too much chloroform accidentally and found her dead? So she panicked and buried her. Is that first degree murder? Second degree murder? Because that’s what the prosecution went for.

  14. There were lesser charges that Casey was charged with and the jury if they could not convict of murder, could have convicted her of one of them. That jury all said they could convict for the death penalty when they were interviewed, so her saying she couldn’t convict for the death penalty because that would mean she murdered someone means she lied. I would have added the charge ‘abuse of a corpse’ because throwing it in the woods definitely qualifies.

    So far, the team Cindy Anthony called to help search for the girl is going to sue as is the woman with the same name that she claimed was the baby sitter who kidnapped the child. That’s two, so far.

  15. I blame the DA for jumping the gun by kowtowing to media and political pressure. He should have waited and patiently built a case. Sooner or later some dumbass would have said something to break the case and deliver solid evidence.
    Do I think she is guilty? HELL YES! But the fact remains that there was never any conclusive cause of death. The body had decomposed too far to yield any chemical traces of suffocation or chloroform or drowning- or whatever else killed that poor baby. Yes matching trash bags and duct tape were found in the home- but WHO used them was never satisfactorily answered.
    IMO that whole family is beyond bizarre- but that does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt who killed the child. The only thing not in doubt is that Casey Anthony is a member of the entitled generation- who wants what she wants, when she wants it and will lie her ass off to get it and she was a poor excuse for a mother and a walking advertisement for retroactive sterilization.

  16. I’m surprised that no one is talking about the creepy boyfriend who had on his facebook page something like, ‘If you have an uncooperative girlfriend, try cholorform’.

  17. PMM
    If they didn’t charge her right away, did they have to let her go. I’m not a lawyer, so don’t really know.

  18. Yes I saw that guy from the team that helped them. I hope hey recover everything and much more. They busted their butts for this lousy family and spent all their budget.

  19. BCL- I am not a lawyer so we will have to wait for NES to answer that one. IIRC – they had her in and out for questioning numerous times before they finally arrested her. I could be mis-remembering though.
    I would rather they had let her go- to party it up and maybe get stoned enough to brag to a friend- than to have it end up this way.

  20. I did hear that Cindy Anthony actually called the police when Casey finally came home because she had taken one of their credit cards and ran up charges. She abandoned her car at a check cashing place where she was trying to cash a stolen friend’s check with her boyfriend. So the car sat there for awhile before the parents were notified that it had been towed. When the police arrived Cindy finally unloaded about all the things Casey was doing. I think they had been covering for her for years.

  21. I agree Mom. Sooner or later she would have incriminated herself. Ditto for her father and mother. Political impatience ruined this case.

  22. To all those riding the “Damn Casey to hell she was a terrible “TOTMOM” train”:

    The prosecutor said in an interview yesterday that he expected Jose to raise the “sexual abuse” accusation against the father. Know why? Because of the MATERIAL HE OBTAINED IN DISCOVERY. Know what that means? It means that there was some kind of WRITTEN RECORD of some accusation and/or type of documented abuse. To Casey. By her good ‘ol DAD. Oh yeah. that lovin’ lyin’ Grandpa.


    Here’s something that should really inspire rage: White House is calling for the halt of the death penalty for a savage rapist and murderer of an innocent girl:


  23. BCL- yes I do recall hearing that. Wonder why no charges were filed for the stolen check?
    Agree the parents have been covering for a long time. And wasn’t it the Mom who called the cops about the stench in the car and being unable to find the granddaughter?
    The whole family is nuts imo.

  24. Baruch there is little doubt in my mind that daddy is seriously involved here.

  25. She will never “brag to a friend”, she is a sociopath. She is not in touch with reality. Her lies are her reality. In her mind, she didn’t do it. It’s like the child never existed. She is in her own world. So waiting for more evidence would have been pointless. I know I’m definitely in the minority, in fact, Hell, I’m probably the only one who thinks this, but there WAS enough evidence. I caught hell on another blog for suggesting that that Jared jerk who shot and killed 6 people and shot Gabrielle Giffords was mentally ill. I said that within hours of the event after reading his jumbled and disoriented ramblings. The same with Casey, she’s not in touch with reality so she will not behave as expected. She will never face, admit or brag about the killing, or even show any kind of remorse or empathy,

  26. Agree with imust. Casey is not normal. She has a personality disorder. Her behavior was not normal at any time throughout this process. She doesn’t appear to have any real emotion except as it applies to “Me”. she is definitely not someone I would want to live next door to.

  27. Uppity, but how can you be sure that daddy is involved? There is no evidence?

  28. Yeah imust, but how do we know her father didn’t do all those things instead? That she’s a pathological liar is undisputed. She got punished for that, because it was not disputable.

  29. imust. I can’t be sure he was involved. That’s why I couldn’t vote as a juror to convict him without evidence. I just THINK he is involved.

  30. Motive. That’s why. Casey had the motive, the father did not.

  31. How do we know he didn’t have motive. How do we know he wasn’t molesting the child? You see what I mean, imust. It’s all just speculating.

  32. She was convicted of the stolen check and that was figured into her sentence. The cop who arrived at the house the night this blew up said he handcuffed her and put her in the cruiser to question her and his superior told him to unhandcuff her because at the point they were only investigating the bad check charge, not the missing child.

  33. I honestly think they should have pretended the case went cold and watch that family like a hawk.

  34. It’s not speculating. She had the motive. She was the mother. She would be “free” once the child was gone. She had the opportunity. She was the one who behaved strangely (did not report for 31 days). The parents reported as soon as they were made aware that the child was missing.

  35. Guess what. They do let cases go cold. And you know what happens? They stay cold. At least she served 3 years this way.

  36. I agree that there is no evidence that the father is involved (yet) and the motive was the night before Casey disappeared with the child, she had a big argument with Mom or both parents, and Mom told her she was not going to watch the child anymore. That made her a major inconvenience. The court did not allow this argument to be entered into evidence (I don’t know why), but I remembered hearing this when the case first broke. During the trial a pundit reiterated that it had happened. So when Casey and the girl disappeared, the parents believed she was mad and working and living with someone else.

  37. I still say we are going to end up paying for her identity change. Wouldn’t be surprised if she sues Orlando either. Next year at this time, she will either be murdered or very very rich. If she plans on doing the TV circuit, she had best take acting lessons, because her sociopathic personality is going to stick out like a turd in a punchbowl.

  38. The Mother reported it, imust. And even that wasn’t very fast.

  39. Yes you are right about cold cases. That’s why I said ‘Pretend”. But then, that wouldn’t work for a DA’s career.

  40. It pains me to say it, but I agree with the jury’s position and Uppity’s arguments, considering the circumstances. How the case had to be reconstructed and presented to encourage reliance upon several possible, unimaginable scenarios placed the jury in the worst possible position.

    I applaud the jury’s courage. To be ‘unable to hand down a guilty verdict based on so much speculation’ (“guessing”) should be considered as ethically, morally and judicially sound as any one of us would hope for from any jury or court of law.

    In this case, that is an especially difficult admission to have to make to myself, which is why I respect the jury’s courage all the more.

  41. They reported it when they were notified that Casey’s car had been towed and it smelled when they went to pick it up. Apparently, Mom tracked Casey down at the boyfriends and Casey said give me one more day of freedom (not her exact words, but something similar). That’s when they demanded to know where the child was.

  42. As BCL said, she was estranged from her mother at that time. Mom wanted to see Caylee, but Casey kept making excuses (lies). Mom thought Casey was mad and was keeping Caylee away to get back at her. There were facebook entries to that effect. This kind of thing goes on in families all the time, children are used as weapons. When the parents realized Casey was lying about Caylee’s whereabouts, they called police.

  43. This DA was planning on retirement. He wasn’t looking to enhance his career.

  44. Was he the DA or an assistant? I don’t remember. Nice to retire with such a win under your belt. Great for future clients. The thing here, from what I have seen of high profile cases is……..DAs are under tremendous public pressure to solve crimes and prosecute somebody.

  45. They already wasted 6 months listening to Casey’s lies and going on wild goose chases to her “employer” Universal Studios. Six months and she didn’t give them anymore evidence except lie more and allow what evidence was there to decompose further in the swamp. At least she lied enough to give her a week more in prison.

  46. xena- you will never, ever find anyone on this blog defending any child molesters. We are entitled to our opinions on Casey and her lack of concern for her daughter is very damning in my eyes. The person on trial was Casey Anthony. If and when her Dad comes to trial I am sure we will be all over it.
    We don’t do witch hunts here. Some of us just happen to believe she is guilty. And if her dad molested her it does not excuse her failing to look for her child or call for help looking for her for 31 days.
    We are aware of the fraud’s sticking his nose in on the case of the felon in Texas- and neither the fraud at 1600 nor the perp get any sympathy here.

  47. Who’s xena PMM?

  48. xena commented at 4:56, imust.

  49. commenter up above imust- look at 4:56-

  50. 2 days ago I went to a party. They had apple pie and also blueberry pie. They had the choice of several ice creams for ala mode.

    I had one slab of each pie sans ice cream. It was darn good eats.

    Fresh fruit season is the best time of year.

    and yes, imust, someone did. (preemptively yours, he he)

  51. I missed xena’s comment too. If Baez had had evidence against the Dad he would have used it. He did ask him the question, then dropped it. And he did nail him on the affair with the searcher, River Cruise.

  52. imusttellkarennottosteponmylines.

  53. Oh I see it now PMM, thanks.

  54. Blueberry pie- sigh- my favorite. Of course my first prize winning Peach and Raspberry pie is good too. and I want some of that chocolate pie DE was showing off.

  55. Yes I just saw Zena too. She needs to read my earlier comment about the POS who hopefully will be executed tonight in Texas.

    You gotta forgive sometimes gang. People will come here without reading a damned thing but the few things in front of them and pass judgment from there. Last thing anybody can EVER accuse us of is defending child molesters and rapists. All one would have to do is do a blog search for the MANY posts I have done on the subject, not to mention our usual Cockroach Of The Week Awards.

    I get and you should get used to being crapped on by RUDE people who fly in on a bulldozer to insult everybody –when they get the time –while the rest of us bust our asses on these subjects daily.

  56. Let’s see. Last time Xena or her IP address posted here was……….Never. So she’s really keeping up with what we do here about child molesters and rapists. She didn’t even read the thread or she would have seen that the piece on Obama trying to keep that POS from being executed was already posted. All in all, I do hope Xena is never on a jury with me. Now she will say goodbye to the blog.

    Carry on, people who don’t jump the gun and come in here kneejerking all over everybody. I gotta put a frittata in the oven.

  57. Don’t tell karen about the frittata. It has zucchini.

  58. Supreme Court tells Obama to take a hike.

    WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court won’t stop Texas from executing a Mexican citizen convicted of raping and killing a 16-year-old girl in a case that has garnered international attention

  59. Interesting. And, unless I’m mistaken, Obama has no ability to pardon the fella or commute his sentence (unlike Perry, who, as the guv, would have the ability to commute sentences).
    Well, at least Obama can use the vignette in his quest for the Hispanic vote. It’s all about 2012, ya betcha!

  60. NES he’s not trying to pardon him, he was trying to get the Supreme Court to tell them to stop the execution, which, if they fell for it, would have been an open door to the world court to tell the Supreme Court what to do. In our land, international law does not trump our laws. Try THAT in Mexico and see what YOU get. Bunch of bullshit. So Obama was trying to jump his power shark and interfere with the state’s right to dispense justice upon a child rapist, torturer and murderer because eh, it’s just a girl but Mexico is our BFF!

    If he had succeeded, this would be the second time, Mexico stuck its nose where it doesn’t belong, namely states business. Of course if we had a president who actually gave a shit about the USA and it’s laws, none of this would even be happening.

  61. Then later she says that if she were to convict Casey then she might be a “murderer too”.

    If the juror said that, imust, then she may have handed the prosecution grounds for a mistrial. This woman was on a ‘death-qualified jury,’ which means she said, under the oath she took as a juror, that could convict of murder-one even where it meant that the sentence would be death. Someone with a problem with the death penalty cannot sit on a ‘death-qualified’ jury. (Caveat: I’m not a criminal defense atty., so I may have overstated the consequences.)

  62. I agree with that on “reasonable doubt,” Upps.

  63. imust, that evidence amounts to an extremely strong probability case, but not “beyond a reasonable doubt.” There are other reasonably possible perps in this situation, aren’t there? I think one has to have some faith in the jury system. I know you watched the case very closely, but not as closely as the jurors did. In the case of a trial with witnesses and evidence (as opposed to a bench trial on a paper trail, eg), there really is something to that saw of “you had to be there.” Think about it — 12 jurors agreed there wasn’t enough evidence; surely not all 12 could’ve been dumb or irresponsible. For every crazy jury veridct we hear about in the press (the high profile cases), there are thousands of jury verdicts that are soundly and correctly delivered in all fifty states of this country every month. It’s a good and fair system and burden of proof — when you pit a state with all its resources and its lethal-injection capability against an individual, the burden MUST be high, very high.

  64. Yep, Unc Baruch, I’m sure that possibility crossed the jurors’ mind. I didn’t follow the case closely at all, so I don’t know if George had an airtight alibi (I doubt it though). But, if he didn’t, that possibiltiy creates reasonable doubt. From what I’ve heard, the jurors didn’t appear to believe George’s story.

  65. karen, the difficulty of being a juror you’ve highlighted is right-on; it’s also magnified a thousand times for a juror on a ‘death-qualified’ jury (the death of an innocent [of the charged crime] person if the jury gets it wrong).

  66. And, there you have it — a COMMONSENSEGRAM from Mom. Persuasively and correctly put, Mom. Come to Calif. and practice law (you don’t need to have gone to law school to practice law in Calif.; you just need to pass the bar, which is a cheaper and quicker route than getting a JD degree).

  67. BCL, they would’ve had to let her go if they hadn’t charged her. But, that’s OK…they couldn’t tracked her for years and waited for the shoe to drop. No statute of limitations on murder.

  68. I always felt that about her daddy, UW. He probably starts young; probably started in on Casey when she was Caylee’s age.

  69. One doesn’t have to be sure daddy did it in a trial on whether Casey did it. (If Daddy were on trial for being the murderer, he’d be saved by the burden-of-proof standard too.) The point is: if the evidence supports either daddy doing it or Casey doing it, then the burden of proof isn’t met because there is “a reasonable doubt” that someone other than Casey did it. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

  70. NES, I had a visceral reaction to her father the minute I saw him, and for sure when he opened his mouth.

  71. camelcade, agreeed. The jury was courageous because they had to make a decision that, forever, will brand them in the ‘arm-chair-viewers’s’ minds as dumb or irresponsible.

  72. What Mom said to xena!

    I’ll just add that “the fraud at 1600” is a perp (in the case of “Killing Hillary’s Political Career”).

  73. who fly in on a bulldozer

    Love that expression, Upps!

  74. zucchini blossoms?

  75. Obama’s an idiot. No way, no how should this country’s wonderfully elegant Anglo-Saxon-common-law-derived judicial system be sullied by the introduction of so-called “international law”!!! Next thing we know Shariah will be driving in on a bulldozer! If that happens, I’m retreating to MOM’s redoubt in the woods, with my Judeo-Christian Bible, my gun, mia donna, and my bitter-clingy self.

  76. No imust, you CAN’T say that in ANY case. Physical evidence doesn’t make that possible. There is no physical proof she did it. Or even what “It” was.

    There was LOTS of physical proof she did it. Plus she was the only person pretending she had Caylee when she did not and she knew it because she knew the kid was already dead. That was the only logical explanation. Had her father or mother or brother been involved she would have had no reason to lie to any of them about having Caylee with her.
    I was on the jury of a murder trial in Fort Lauderdale in the mid 90s. The defense threw everything but the kitchen sink at us in terms of what might have happened. But the evidence, none of which was direct evidence, pointed at only one real possibility, that the young man was guilty of murder. Casey should have been easily found guilty of 2nd degree based on the charge of aggravated child abuse. The prosecution proved that every other theory thrown up by the defense was NOT possible.
    This juror is substituting not having evidence with not understanding the evidence. Imust is right, there could be other explanations, but none supported by evidence or even plausible. The jury wimped out because of the death penalty just as this juror has unwittingly revealed….IMO

  77. The breakdown on the Casey verdict on this very blog is telling. If the Uppityites were on that jury, we’d probably have a ‘hung jury,’ broken down as follows: 10 for acquittal, 2 for guilty. In that event, there’d be a mistrial, and possibly a re-trial with probably the same outcome.

  78. No way, no how should this country’s wonderfully elegant Anglo-Saxon-common-law-derived judicial system be sullied by the introduction of so-called “international law”!!!

    Thank you NES. The rotten creep owned the crime. Does that not mean anything? I don’t care if the creep came from Mars. He did the deed. The crime was odious.

  79. There was LOTS of physical proof she did it.

    Which physical proof is that? Remember now, the question is “What physical proof is there that she did it?”

  80. Obama’s an idiot. No way, no how should this country’s wonderfully elegant Anglo-Saxon-common-law-derived judicial system be sullied by the introduction of so-called “international law”!!!

    No need to worry. They gave the guy the needle. He’s gone to hell. Perhaps Obama would like to call Mexico and ask them if they want his body.

  81. Mexico won’t want the body if it can’t make money to send home.

  82. Surprised Bawaak didn’t try some kind of executive order, Despot.

  83. Supreme blew obama off with only a 5-4. Now that’s fricking scary.

  84. The defense threw everything but the kitchen sink at us in terms of what might have happened

    They could do that because the Prosecution had no clue what happened. This left reasonable doubt wide open.

  85. NoEmptySuits, on July 7, 2011 at 8:31 PM said:
    The breakdown on the Casey verdict on this very blog is telling. If the Uppityites were on that jury, we’d probably have a ‘hung jury,’ broken down as follows: 10 for acquittal, 2 for guilty. In that event, there’d be a mistrial, and possibly a re-trial with probably the same outcome.
    There were actually 3 charges and only the first degree murder one called for the death penalty. Do those voting for acquittal also vote not quilty on the lesser charges (not the lying to police charges).

  86. I’m lovin’ it UW.

  87. 5-4 on the Mexican guy? Would that be the 3 ladies and who else agreed with Obama?

  88. NES you’re in charge of Anthony rebuttals tonight. I did it all afternoon.

  89. zucchini blossoms?

    OMG. you’ve never eaten zucchini blossoms????

  90. Zucchini flowers, raw.

    delicate and delicious Zucchini flowers, fried.

  91. I troll the farmer’s markets for baskets of zucchini flowers. then I buy them up. yes that’s right. I am a selfish bastard and I buy them all.

  92. Anytime, mcnorman. I’m a true-blue believer in this system of law. (Not all legal systems are comparable, clearly, and this Anglo-Saxon one is second to none.)

  93. He could dump the body off the S.S. Vinson, “in a manner consistent with Mexican Catholicism.”

  94. Quite right…SCARY. The way to hell is paved with good intentions. Perhaps that’s why we have to have a GOP prez to appoint the next S.Ct. justice. Seriously, it’s not that bleeding-heart-liberals hate this country, it’s that they don’t understand how much OTHERS hate this country and would undermine it given half a chance.

  95. They have to vote unanimously on each count, BCL.

    I haven’t focused on how a hypothetical jury of Uppityites would vote on the lesser charges, BCL — I was simply assessing the ‘votes’ on the primary murder-one charge. (Perhaps you could do that, if you’re so inclined…it’d be interesting.)

  96. Didn’t I make up for it already, Upps?

  97. Oh no, I have. Yum. That’s why I asked. I’ll be over soon.

  98. NES
    My question was not about the real jury but about the blog jury.

  99. Right, BCL…I figured that out only belatedly. So, rather than admit that, I used (abused) my moderator privileges to go in and ‘amend’ my response to make my otherwise unresponsive response responsive (and, conversely, to make your comment of 9:41 pm look like you didn’t get it). OK?

  100. Next time, Upps, leave one blossom for me.

  101. NES I don’t WANT supreme court justices taht are tied to political ideology. They BOTH SUCK. I want a SENSIBLE JUDGE that doesn’t jerk around with the constitution to meet the needs of the Favor Owed for the appointment. i am so sick of the Mussolini-Scalias and they knucklehead Souter who, thank god is gone. I don’t feel comfortable with this court because it’s a constant 5-4 battle one way or the other and that is just plain SICKENING and WRONG. These judges voted on ideology on this execution. This time it was the Democrats that scared me. Next time it will be the Republicans. That’s what we have on the court now. Extensions of the Far Right and The Far Left!!!

  102. Gotta come out and say it, NES. Zucchini blossoms are just plain delectable. They never make it to the table when I make them. We just salt them and eat them as they come out of the pan.

  103. Quite right, Upps, on the S.Ct. justices. Ideology shouldn’t matter, but, unfortunately, it tends to. The personal is political, and all that. Really, it would appear that one’s politics are inextricably tied to one’s ‘potty training.’ lorac, what do you think about that?

    On a more neutral note, I’m just being realistic. The Dems and Reeps aren’t about to change the way they pick S.Ct. justices. It’s up to the justices to strike out on an independent path once they take the bench — that highest bench in the land. I mean, why wouldn’t they? Once sworn into that exalted position, they’re like gods…virtually untouchable. Former Sup. Ct. Chief Justice Earl Warren is a model for what I’m talking about: he was a dyed-in-the-wool Republican (former Calif. governor) when Nixon (yes, Nixon!) appointed him to the bench, and he went down in history as the man who swung the Court to the ‘left’ (which is to say, ‘the middle,’ by today’s standards).

  104. Amen Uppity. The SCOTUS IS scary now. In Civics class back in the stone age we were taught that the Supreme Court INTERPRETED the law. You remember civics I know. Checks and balances. Executive, legislative, judicial branches. Their separate responsibilities.
    And really what the hell are they afraid of? It’s a lifetime appt for crying out loud. They need to leave ideology at the door.
    What NES said “they don’t understand how much OTHERS hate this country and would undermine it given half a chance.” is quite thought provoking. Can it be that they are so blind they just do not get it?

  105. NES
    You’ve got me at a disadvantage since I’m not a moderator, so you get off the hook. 😉

  106. Can it be that they are so blind they just do not get it?

    Blind, yes, but wilfully blind; thus, unforgiveably blind.

    Mom, I’ve always thought that one’s naiveity about matters that endganger another’s life and liberty is corrupt and condemnable. As Upps would say, “Don’t volunteer my life.”

  107. Cool BCL! I’ll fish you out of spam to return the favor.

  108. Actually I thought Raygun’s appointee Sandra Day O’Connor was one of the most objective judges we have had.

  109. I’m just doing a hit and run, but saw this and knew the ladies here would be interested:



  110. Good point on Aunt Sandy.
    I loved me my Raygun.

  111. The prosecution overcharged – plain and simple. I never heard anything about lesser included offenses. Even the manslaughter charge required a finding of aggravation. The evidence was not sufficient to find guilt – let along guilt for charges that required a higher standard of guilt.

    BTW, Florida actually defines reasonable doubt…it requires an unwavering and stable finding of fact.

    I thought the juror was extremely clear – they knew something was not right with this entire family – but they could not find as to the “facts”. If you should ever be charged with a crime, you want this kind of thoughtfulness.

  112. NES I far from loved Raygun. I could list why too. He wasn’t the Saint they make him out to be. But hey, I did well under him. And at least I was sure he loved America. And I felt like he was looking out for our national security. And I just do not have that feeling any longer. i have never and I mean NEVER felt that my country was endangered, until Barack Obama.

    O’Connor remains my favorite Justice because i never felt politics made her choices for her. Sometimes I agreed, sometimes I didn’t, but I felt she was objective.

  113. I ate a lot of cereal for dinner when Reagan was President. Yeah, they were some good times.

  114. I thought the juror was spot on….very smart and thoughtful. Where is the proof? There was none….no blood, no hair, no DNA, nothing….you can’t convict based on what is your “felling”….there has to be EVIDENCE> Thankfully.

  115. OT Another twist to the miraculous birth of Barack Obama.

    “Subject got his USC wife ‘Hapai’ [Hawaiian for pregnant] and although they were married they do not live together and Miss Dunham is making arrangements with the Salvation Army to give the baby away,’’ according to a memo describing the conversation with Obama written by Lyle H. Dahling, an administrator in the Honolulu office of what was then called the US Immigration and Naturalization Service.

    The baby daddy wanted junior to be put up for adoption according to the newest meme.

  116. As Anthony said, it blows the manger story to bits. sigh

  117. If I recall correctly, and I do, Reagan arbitrarily dumped people from SSDI. I remember correctly because a friend of mine died waiting for her reconsideration. I guess she was really sick after all…..

  118. I bet one of his last lucid thoughts was, Dang! I shouldn’t have cut Alsheimer’s research! Shoulda paid more attention to that stem cell thing too!

  119. As far as the proof. If the baby wasn’t stabbed, sliced or shot there wouldn’t be any blood. I believe they did find hair in the trunk as well as traces of choloroform. Funny that everyone now wants DNA evidence. DNA wasn’t accepted as evidence in most courts until about the mid 1990s. Gee, I wonder how they solved crimes before then??

  120. Reagan also created that disaster EMTALA. Noble premise which was not thought out well. We are feeling the repercussions today.

  121. Also funny how DNA has gotten some people removed from death row and life sentence incarcerations too. I’ll bet one of my hairs is in the trunk of my car. Just a wild guess.

    Chloroform in cleaning products. Just saying.

    Before the 90s, they would not have considered this case solved. Maybe a few years later, somebody slips up….

    I know I’m devils advocating on you imust, but i want you to see why it is that jury could not convict. It’s not because they didn’t care or were stupid. It’s because the prosecution gave them nothing except, “She did it”.

  122. You are devils advocating….but you’re actually proving my point. Hair doesn’t satisfy because, well there are a number of ways hair could get into your car, trunk, vacuum, coke (oops, wrong case)….you get the idea. So what definitive proof that could not be explained another way do you need. It’s the cumulative proof of all of these things. Then a reasonable person makes a decision. If you remember the OJ trial, no matter what evidence was brought forward, defense claimed that it was “planted”. So they create room for “doubt”.

  123. To me, it would be about Who. How. Where. When. Why. most of those weren’t answered. Not definitively anyways.

    OJ trial went bust because those morons tried to frame a guilty man. And not for anything, but a guy with arthritiis in his hands only needs to make sure he doesn’t take any anti inflammaory drugs to ensure a glove no longer fits.

  124. Hey McNorman, are we supposed to feel sorry for Bawaak because his jackrabbit of a father wanted to adopt him out? Maybe they should have instead of him being raised by two parents who met in Russian class so they could refine the art of Communism. Maybe then Uncle Frank for sure wouldn’t have had a chance to fondle. Maybe he would have been raised by normal parents and grown up to do a job that isn’t his Peter Principle.

  125. I should really make imust a pie.

  126. That’s right UW, Bawaack might not have turned out to be the sorry manchild that he is today. Imagine that? lol

  127. Even if the glove had fit……what would it prove? Defense could summon thousands of people who would find that the glove fits them….well…like a glove. Same for shoes. All brutal murderers wear expensive Italian shoes, its almost like a uniform for them. I think they had the Who and the How….the Where was in question….the When they could estimate based on the last time the child was seen (although she was a toddler and didn’t have normal routines that say a grade school age child would have)…..Why? That’s the easy one. Mommy wouldn’t babysit/raise the child anymore and she wanted the Beautiful Life.

  128. You can make me a humble pie when you agree that I am right!

  129. imust you are a hoot and half!

  130. Imust, why would I lie like that???


  131. She abandoned her car at a check cashing place where she was trying to cash a stolen friend’s check with her boyfriend. So the car sat there for awhile before the parents were notified that it had been towed

    BCL – this is the same car that allegedly had the decomposing body in it for awhile….?

  132. Thanks mcnorman….but I am at least 2 hoots, if I’m a day.
    And Uppity, no worries, I’m patient too. 🙂

  133. btw. Did you notice that I fixed my gravatar profile? You can click on it now and it enlarges. (mental note: Let Anthony Weiner know about this trick)

  134. Hey lorac, lay off the sauce. If you don’t spell your screen name loracorac, you won’t land in spam.

  135. I thought lorac might be drinking cognac too.

  136. loracognac?

  137. She’ll answer later. She’s refilling her glass.

  138. You can click on it now and it enlarges. (mental note: Let Anthony Weiner know about this trick)


  139. I think we should run a contest and see who can guess what Anthony will be doing for a living next.

  140. I just can not understand how many folks can not see there was no proof she murdered the baby. Is she sick ? YES but the prosecution fell down a rabbit hole on this case. I am happy to see a jury do their job right and no go on what they think happened.

  141. Ack! I didn’t spell it that way, silly! The whole form was blank when I typed in – maybe it was just starting to fill itself in when I started typing. Why would I type it “loracorac” when my name is really stiusytpmeon? lol

  142. Sure loracacacac. sure.

  143. Hey was this the pic weiner had on his twitter or did somebody hack him? I notice his twitter is kinda….dead. chuckle.

  144. Hey did Mexico claim that shitbag child rapist and killer’s body yet? They seemed so interested in him.

  145. Barack obama is simply crazy. Executive Order, besides. Out of control. out of his mind.

  146. Yes, I think that’s the photo Weiner had of himself. High school photo perhaps? Just proves that he probably never had a date in high school.

  147. Democrats pick another one of the boys to replace Weiner. Because, there are just too damned many wimminz in congress.

  148. I’m voting with the people who think the jury behaved properly (to the extent I can tell, as I wasn’t in the courtroom). There sure didn’t seem to be any *direct* evidence connecting her to the crime. It’s a totally separate question from whether she actually did it. If we didn’t have laws specifying what must be present in order to convict, we might as well get rid of courts, and go back to lynch mobs. You know, you hear a rumor that so and so did X, so you all go and kill the guy.

    Casey appears to be very immature, very irresponsible, very narcissistic. She did things that none of us would do (lying, not reporting a missing child or even seeming alarmed about it, trying to cash a stolen check, etc). It’s all very alarming and suspicious. But isn’t proof that she killed anyone.

    And *I* have duct tape in my house (it’s pretty common and pretty standard in appearance). If a dead person showed up a few blocks from my house, would that make me a suspect? The chloriform searches – maybe she wanted to keep the kid quiet while she went out and partied. Wrong? Yes. But not proof of murder. And (not that I think this is what happened) for that matter, the murderer could have done those searches themselves in order to frame her – the boyfriend, maybe? When someone tries to frame someone else, they go the extra mile to make it look real.

    Geez, maybe she sold the kid for money, to some stranger she would never be able to identify or trace, and didn’t want to admit it, especially if she knew the police could never find that person. Again, that would be wrong behavior – but not proof of murder.

    There just are alternate answers for everything, other people with access. Without evidence tying Casey directly to the crime, how can they pin it on her?

  149. Yup they did. Boo Freaking Hoo.

  150. Again. As I said. You can refute each piece of evidence on it’s own. It’s the cumulative effect. You connect the dots. I believe there was enough evidence. Others do not. That’s why they have specialists in jury selection because not everyone sees everything the same way.

  151. Yeah, imust, a way cool gravatar verbal message.

  152. And *I* have duct tape in my house (it’s pretty common and pretty standard in appearance).

    It WAS lorac!!!!!!!!!

  153. High school photo perhaps? Just proves that he probably never had a date in high school.

    BINGO, imust — Weiner would be the perfect candidate for that no-date-in-high-school theory for why guys go wrong; wouldn’t he?

  154. imust – obviously I’m not in the legal field. But my sense is that it’s not the “quantity” that is at issue, but the “quality” – meaning, it’s not *direct* evidence. It was all circumstantial evidence.

    What about this scenario – you’re wearing blue jeans and a white tshirt. You come down an elevator, and as you’re walking out of the elevator bank (probably 10 elevators there), someone starts screaming that there’s a dead baby in one of the elevators. A call comes from security upstairs that they saw a woman in blue jeans and a white tshirt throw the baby into the elevator and then run down the stairs. It turns out it was the baby of your ex-boyfriend, with whom you had a nasty breakup. It wasn’t YOU who threw the baby, you hadn’t even seen the family upstairs, but you instinctively start running.

    1. you are dressed alike
    2. you just came down from the scene of the crime
    3. you’re acquainted with the baby, and are not on good terms with i its father
    4. you run away from the scene

    Pretty suspicious! But it’s all coincidental.

  155. Hey, cool new screen-name, lorac.

  156. Whoa lorac!!! How’d you change your screen-name twice on the same comment?!

  157. I understand that it’s circumstantial. The scenario you’ve painted is interesting. I get your point. But it has nothing to do with the real evidence in this case…you can’t make that direct comparison. The baby in this case was Casey’s. She lied for a month and did not report her 2 year old missing. That’s not “instinctive”, in fact, quite the opposite. They did find evidence in the car, just not the evidence that people seem to demand. So basically, she committed the perfect crime. No blood. Stashed body in a deserted area so no witnesses. Body put in swamp and allowed to decompose for over 6 months. Walah! No conviction. Guilty as sin…free as a bird.

  158. Why would I type it “loracorac” when my name is really stiusytpmeon?

    That’s my name, lorac!….everytime I look in a mirror.

  159. Hey, some drunk person is screwing with my name! lol

    I always thought cognac was drunk by old men, sitting around smoking their cigars, after the women have retired to the “gentler quarters”….. (probably the kitchen, where they’re washing the dishes!)

  160. Obama tries to stay an execution 17 years in the making? What is he smoking? And the kicker is that the murderer WAS GUILTY and admitted it!! Nothing like being minutes away from death to make you ‘fess up and say you’re sorry in a last ditch effort to avoid hell.

  161. NES, did you do that? Are you the wise guy? lol Well, I can’t do it back GRRRR The edit button only appears for me on Wednesdays…..

  162. imust wrote:

    unless she can show that someone else was caring for the child at the time of the disappearance….she DID IT.

    I’m sorry, imust, but that is exactly wrong. The defendant does not have to prove anything — the prosecution does. That is what “innocent until proven guilty” means. The entire burden of proof (which is, granted, a heavy burden, as it should be, IMO) is on the prosecution. Boxing is a good analogy to think about it: the defendant is the reigning champ & the prosecution is the contender. In order for the prosecution to “win” he has to knock the defendant out, not merely land a few good punches. In order for the defendant to win, he only has to just be standing at the end of the prosecution’s case. The defendant doesn’t have to even put on any case, really, much less “prove” anything. All he just has to dodge the prosecution’s punches & not get knocked out.

    What you wrote is “guilty until proven innocent” and while there are countries that have legal systems that work that way (France, for example) it is not the way the US system works. And, IMO, while our system isn’t perfect, it is the best in the world. It should not be easy for the state to take away someone’s life or liberty and the burden should be solely on the state. As hard as the fact that Casey is going free may be to swallow, I honestly believe it is better for 100 guilty people to go free than 1 innocent be convicted. .

    RE: those saying there were “lesser” charges the jury could have convicted on (not just Murder 1). While that is true, there are two major problems with that. First, the DA spent no time trying to prove those charges — the entire focus was on the Murder 1 charge. If the prosecution doesn’t prove each elements of the lesser charges, the jury has no choice but to vote not guilty. Second, because of the “aggravated” counts (aggravated manslaughter of a child & aggravated child abuse) neither of those charges encompassed a component of accident. IF the jury had reasonable doubt as to whether Caylee’s death was intentional or accidental, they made the right decision to vote not guilty. As hard as that is to hear, it is true.

    IMO, the DA made two major mistakes (1) over-charging her with Murder 1 when they could not show cause of death. That was flat out ridiculous & when I watched the DA’s case unfold I couldn’t believe they were even attempting to ask for the death penalty; (2) not including a lesser count like involuntary manslaughter which does not require any kind of intent to kill, but includes accidents. From what I’ve heard from the jurors who have spoken, they believed Caylee’s death was accidental (or at least, that is what they had their doubts about). Thus, if something like involuntary manslaughter had been charged, I’m sure the jury would have convicted her on that charge.

    Finally, to those worrying about Casey making $$ off of this crime. Don’t. The only movies she’s going to be making are porn & then she’ll be on Celebrity Rehab in a few years. If she does manage to get any “respectable” tv interviews, I’m boycotting that network & show.

  163. Ooo. Angie, doez Bill got him another blog lawyer? Not bad for a bunch of deadenders….

  164. Doctors, lawyers, veterinarians, teachers, psychotherapists, engineers, managers. All low information. Who knew?

  165. It wasn’t me, lorac.

    J’accuse the Blog Mistress, she who rules us all (with an iron fist).

  166. Marsha’s a lawyer too, isn’t she?

  167. Vets too?

  168. low information- ah yes- I remember that one- caused by refusal to watch, read or listen to the pre-approved, paid liars and further exacerbated by diligently applying troll repellent as necessary. Low information voters are very skeptical and demand FACTS. They are so stubborn in this mania for facts they will actually research- ON THEIR OWN- and double and triple check sources.
    yeah low information is right up there with raycist, dried up, bitter, clinger, vagina voter etc etc.
    I am immune now. Overexposure to insults from trolls does have that one benefit.

  169. From the link above about bo’s sperm donor: “Sally Jacobs is a Boston Globe reporter. Her book, “The Other Barack, The Bold and Reckless Life of President Obama’s Father,’’ will be released next week. ”

    It took how long to come out with this book? Now maybe people will start to realize what a freaky person they gave authority over their lives and the stability of their country. They voted for this clown to control “the button”.


  170. Yes Bill his his own personal blog vet, NES. Endurovet AKA Val is a veterinarian.

  171. Yes I believe marsha is a lawyer too. I’m covered in three states!

  172. It wasn’t me, lorac.

    J’accuse the Blog Mistress, she who rules us all (with an iron fist).

    Oh sure, Blame me.

    Besides, I accept no responsibility for anything I am really responsible for.

  173. My comment that was quoted above was not my entire point that I thought she should be convicted. Of course I understand that the burden of proof is on prosecution and that we are innocent until proven guilty. I believe she was guilty based on the evidence and I have cited it numerous times above. Obviously some people believe the evidence, others think it wasn’t enough. I just think its wrong to say that people who thought she should have been convicted just don’t approve of her lifestyle…or just FEEL like she did it. You either believe the evidence, or you don’t……..I do.

  174. Uppity — Yes, I am a lawyer. I don’t practice criminal law (I actually practice bankruptcy). But my schooling gives me insight into understanding the nuances of different charges, etc. I wasn’t trying to pick on anyone; just explain that some ways of thinking about things that are acceptable common sense-wise for the public in general are not acceptable for someone who sits on a jury.

    And, yes, my degree doesn’t make me any less of a low-information, bitter knitter, dead-ender. 🙂

  175. On topic: I agree w/the jury. The prosecution did not prove its case. Slut shaming as a legal tool must be abandoned. Off topic (sorta): http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/opinion/05nocera.html. I say “good” for the NY DA, too.

  176. Oh don’t worry Angienc. imust can take it. We just shove some pie in her mouth.

  177. Somebody gave me the link to DU, and overall I would say those people finally got it. Right in their noses. Half those comments sound like they came from us low information voters. We would have been thrown out of there (and were) for warning them of the same things they are complaining about now. I refuse to post a link and send them traffic, though. This is a site where someone actually had the audacity to call my blog name “Racist” just to show you how convoluted the race card got back then. All any borderline brain has to do is google “Uppity woman” to find out that title belongs to women all the way back to a time before the USA even existed. When it did exist, they burned Uppity Women at the stake. I’m sure that crossed the commenter’s mind at that point, given the desire to see us all dead. Anyways, if half those comments came from one of us, they would be screaming Racist! right now. Alas, it is all too late for the realization. Barack isn’t finished with them yet. Too bad we have to take the crap along with them. given we had absolutely nothing to do with electing this lying turkey.

  178. One last comment, while probably unnecessary, given so many valid positions.

    Anthony has all of the signs often associated with so many sexually abused women, disassociation, incessant lying, inappropriate response, etc.

    Juror number 3 seems to acknowledge that the jurors grasped her personalty disorder as a deeply rooted pattern, determining that neither could her appalling behaviors be attributable to evidence of her guilt.

    Keen observations and sound judgment of this jury, regarding all of the issues raised and presented, seems to have erred on the side of mercy. As undeserving as it may seem, in light of the merciless injustice of this child’s death and how the mother behaved through it all, had they convicted her and sentenced her to death, I would feel the same uncertainty over her “unquestionable guilt” as I do now.

    I learned some things from this jury, if or when I am ever chosen to actually serve as a juror.

  179. The same people who said they could convict on circumstantial evidence AND death penalty weren’t asked if they could do both at once. But 10 hours of deliberation did not even give them time to sleep on things and discuss each others’ perspective. I think they heard closing arguments, did a July 4th Jurors’ private consolation dinner and threw up their hands in despair. They find out after they get home and check on the internets, that they have incredible authority by virtue of their experience, common sense and powers of discernment. As I learned after serving on a similar case,

    JURY POWER in the system of checks and balances:
    In a Constitutional system of justice, such as ours, there is a judicial body with more power than Congress, the President, or even the Supreme Court. Yes, the trial jury protected under our Constitution has more power than all these government officials. This is because it has the final veto power over all “acts of the legislature” that may come to be called “laws”.

    http://www.caught.net/juror.htm Juror’s Handbook – wish all right thinking Americans knew this…and despite their insistence that they use other lists than voter registration, my non-registered husband has NEVER been summoned for jury duty while I get mine like clockwork every three years. I know comments are over, but this nugget of American Constitutional Authority is a jewel to be held sacred. We – the Jury – are, in fact the final Judicial Authority. Talk about appointed for Life.

  180. SWPAnna, your comment may be delayed, but I wouldn’t have missed it for the world.

    And, considering the jury selection process, all the more reason we MUST be certain that only American Citizens are allowed to register to vote, which can be done when a person receives a DRIVER’s LICENSE. Can you imagine how our jury system could be infiltrated and destroyed otherwise?

    Every 4 years I get the summons.

  181. Every 4 years I get the summons.

    Wow, Upps, not fair. People here get summoned every year. Of course, I never get chosen because one or the other side isn’t going to want a lawyer on the jury, but
    one does have to show up and go through the procedure. Sometimes it’s a pain, but I really like that judges don’t give attorneys an easy out — it’s an important civic duty and, more significantly, we (attorneys) have to be willing to do what we need others to do for the sake of our cases.

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