Fall Food Fails! UPDATED!

Putting this update at the top. This is getting absurd and scary!


California-based Manning Beef is recalling 80,000 pounds of beef products over possible E. coli contamination, the U.S. Department of Agriculture said.

“The establishment is recalling a variety of beef primal and subprimal cuts … and manufacturing trimmings due, in part, to insanitary conditions as reflected by an unusually high number of confirmed positive E. coli” test results, the USDA’s Food Safety and Inspection Service said on Friday.

Primal and subprimal cuts just means the carcass was given a basic quartering and sent out for further processing. In other words- it could show up anywhere. As steaks, roasts, burger. In meatballs and ravioli. In grocery stores in the”fresh” meat case or the frozen food aisle. In restuarants and cafeterias.  ANYWHERE!


The food recalls this week are coming fast and furious hot and heavy. We all have been posting them in the comments- cantaloupe, beef and last night lettuce. This morning I woke up to yet ANOTHER! organic grape tomatoes. Organic huh? Well that is just ducky. So I thought I would round them all up and Uppity can add them to the food recall page later.

First up this week was listeria enhanced cantaloupe. That lovely fall fruit- favorite of buffet restaurants and hospital and nursing home kitchens.

Cantaloupe deaths and illnesses expected to rise

So far, the outbreak has caused at least 72 illnesses — including up to 16 deaths — in 18 states, making it the deadliest food outbreak in the United States in more than a decade.

snipFrieden and FDA Commissioner Margaret Hamburg said that illnesses are expected for weeks to come because the incubation period for listeria can be a month or even longer. That means that someone who ate contaminated cantaloupe last week may not get sick until next month. Jensen Farms last shipped cantaloupeson Sept. 10. The shelf life is about two weeks.

“We will see more cases likely through October,” Hamburg said.

Next we had Tyson Beef. Beef? Wasn’t Tyson a big chicken producer? Ah what the hell- name your poison so to speak.  Beef and e-coli- they go together these days.

Tyson recalls ground beef over possible E. coli contamination

(Reuters) – Tyson Fresh Meats Inc. is recalling about 131,300 pounds of ground beef that may be contaminated with E. coli, federal officials said.

By the way- that one has cases as far as Ohio and New York. But hey- not to worry- the article says it has all probably been consumed already- and the recall is “voluntary”- but check your freezer they said. Just in case.

NEXT! Listeria in lettuce! That bug(ger) is having a busy month!

Lettuce Recall

Voluntary Recall From California Farm

It’s a voluntary recall issued for chopped Romaine lettuce out of California after one bag tested positive for Listeria.

And not to be outdone or ignored- here’s Salmonella!

Salmonella Prompts Grape Tomato Recall

Andrew Williamson Fresh Produce is voluntarily recalling one lot of its organic grape tomatoes, which were sold under the Limited Edition® and Fresh & Easy labels, said the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). The grape tomatoes are being recalled over a possible health risk from the dangerous Salmonella pathogen.

I want you to note how Salmonella no longer discriminates against organics! Equal opportunity poisoning!

Now one would think that four stories in one week is quite enough no? NO! Please take note of the following which I found on the Food Safety Inspection Services page (which you should bookmark.)

Pennsylvania Firm Recalls Pureed Pork Products That May Contain Foreign Materials 

(metal fragments were found in the meat)

WASHINGTON, Sep 23, 2011 – Palo Duro Meat, an Amarillo, Texas, establishment, is recalling 40,000 pounds of frozen fine ground beef products that may be contaminated with E. coli O157:H7, the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS) announced today.

Note that this is a SEPARATE recall- but not to worry- supposedly only shipped to GA- that being Georgia, United States.

This post is getting long- so I won’t list them all- but if you go to that FSIS page and then click on “Current Recalls and Alerts” you will see there are SEVEN recalls for September- and that page is MEAT ONLY!  You can go to the FDA site and wade through for other recalls-

Where by the way I just saw a warning not to eat oysters from the Hood Canal area 4 in Washington State- So toady we have a new vocabulary word!

Vibrio parahaemolyticus

What is Vibrio parahaemolyticus?

Vibrio parahaemolyticus is a bacterium in the same family as those that cause cholera. It lives in brackish saltwater and causes gastrointestinal illness in humans. V. parahaemolyticus naturally inhabits coastal waters in the United States and Canada and is present in higher concentrations during summer; it is a halophilic, or salt-requiring organism.

Same family as cholera- lovely! Present in higher concentrations during summer. Hey look, I don’t even eat the slimy things- but I was taught early on that you do not eat oysters in any month not ending in “R.” That would be- let’s see- the SUMMER months! Sometimes the old wives tales are born of common sense!

Cheese and rice! I am starting to feel like Cassandra or Debbie Downer.

I am with imust! Pie and Milk 2012!


78 Responses

  1. Yum! Fruit and veggies! Michelle says eat more of them! The population is much too big in the USA. Eat up!

    Or you can rebel and….eat a burger! Yum!

  2. Pureed pork?! Really? Yuk! And I suppose the metal was there to give it texture.

  3. Thanks for the public service announcement Mom. We wouldn’t want our Uppityites getting sick. Barack Obama already makes them feel sick enough.

  4. Delphyne- pureed pork- think scrapple, sausage etc.
    I think I need to expand the damn garden! Funny how my chickens roam at will, fertilizing as they go- and we have no problems here. We clean out the chicken/goat shed spring and fall – in fall we till it right in when we put the garden to bed. In spring it is the starter for the compost pile. Just as the old timers did- before factory farming. Imagine that.

  5. Am putting down storm windows today 😦 getting ready for winter. I caved yesterday and turned the heat on two weeks early. Again 😦 Will have to cut back somewhere to pay for those two additional weeks of heat.
    Will be popping in and out during the day.

  6. PMM! I’m not only eating pie & milk……in November 2012, I’m VOTING for them!


    Because We Can

  7. PIE/Milk

    Because We Can…
    YUM!!!!!!!!!! 🙂

  8. Stop discriminating against cake.

  9. Cake/Coffee 2012

    Let them eat cake! (because we liked how that turned out in 1789)

  10. And Sophie….I suppose you’re gonna call me raycist if I vote
    Pie/Milk and not Cake/Coffee 2012?!
    Yeah, like I didn’t see that one coming!


  11. With regard to the recalls….I did have a similar tomato product in my refrigerator. Clam shell container, product of Mexico…different brand name…..I threw them away anyway. Seriously, what can we do about this? I don’t remember a time when we had this many food recalls, it used to be very rare. What’s the source of the contamination?


    Recall fruits and vegetables! ImPEACHment is NOT on the table!

  12. Satisfying read: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-goldberg-bear-20110927,0,4273751,print.column

    ‘The way I think about it,” Barack Obama told a TV station in Orlando, “is, you know, this is a great, great country that had gotten a little soft.”
    He has a point. This is a great, great country that got so soft that 53% of electors voted for a ludicrously unqualified chief executive who would be regarded as a joke candidate in any serious nation.
    One should not begrudge a man who seizes his opportunity. But one should certainly hold in contempt those who allow him to seize it on the basis of such flaccid generalities as “hope” and “change”: That’s more than “a little” soft.
    “He’s probably the smartest guy ever to become president,” declared presidential historian Michael Beschloss the day after the 2008 election. But you don’t have to be that smart to put one over on all the smart guys.
    “I’m a sap, a specific kind of sap. I’m an Obama Sap,” admits David Brooks, the softest touch at the New York Times. Tina Brown, editor of Newsweek, now says of the president: “He wasn’t ready, it turns out, really.”

  13. I do find myself buying more and more frozen vegetables. But if you read bags, you find that plenty of THEM are from out of the country too. But then again, all the listeria recalls have been from grown in the USA products, fresh produce mostly. The thing here is these people are not really regulated any longer. Look at that filthy chicken farmer and his millions of contaminated eggs. It’s not the first time he’s been caught and he’s still allowed to continue on, when he should be in prison. He had 6 foot piles of chicken crap right there for them all to romp through. WOrkers blew whistles and nothing happened. And he was , condoning sexual harassment of workers besides. He exploits children and illegal aliens too. They don’t get more disgusting than this jack decoster guy and still, he is free to kill people with his filth, with the joke that he is the “Teflon Chicken Don”.

  14. “The fierce urgency of now”. Who knew it really meant “The fierce urgency of my rise”.

    We knew. That’s who knew.

  15. Precisely, Upps. Hope meant “hope for my win”; Change meant “change to marvelous me”; reset meant “love the East, hate the West.”
    “I, me, my, mine, myself” is what Obie is all about; period.

  16. OK, who thinks the Fast & Fuious scandal will touch Obama? I’m doubtful.

  17. Rule # 657 in the Golden Age of Obama:
    ~Tying or attempting to tie any scandal to Obama is raycist!

  18. John Smart has a new video up – a Ron Paul supporter in conversation with an Obama supporter.

  19. PMM – With garden and eggs from free ranger chicks, we eat well. Chick droppings are so rich they must be composted [as I’m sure you know]. We disolve some of the compost and spray it on lawn [this is called manure tea]; the rest of the compost goes onto the garden in the fall.

    Your health and mine is due to our not throwing dead animals into the compost as many of the commercial and foreign producers do. The layer mash for hens is more expensive but we always check to see that it “contains no animal parts.” Now that regulations/inspections are breaking down, the dumb asses and corporations will continue to save money by disposing of diseased animals in food for animals that we eat.

  20. twandx- you got it! The chickens run around the garden all spring, summer and fall. When we rake the shed out in the fall it all goes right on the garden and then is tilled under for the winter. The spring raking goes on the compost pile. I have heard of compost tea- never had a chance to try it out though. We plant the winter squashes right at the edge of the compost pile- and most years have bumper crops lol.
    The only animal waste that goes in the compost is egg shells. Meat scraps and bones (bones after extracting all the goodness for stock) go to the dog. The pile never ever smells of rotten garbage. Throw the scraps on, shovel some of the more finished compost on top.
    We are fortunate to live in a rural area and there is a feed mill close by and a farm and garden that has their own feed mill as well. We feed the chickens mostly scratch grains- with some of the local laying mash. The four hens and the (nasty, ill tempered, attack) rooster get most of what they need all summer right in the yard. And we have eggs enough for ourselves and to give away or trade.

    Delphyne- thanks for the new JWS video! I LOVE his stuff!

  21. Fortunately, I do get free range local chickens and beef here. But our farmer’s market season from most vegetables is seasonal. The rest of the time, if we want tomatoes, carrots, green vegatables, etc,, anything grown in warmer season, we are dependent on produce from other places –and that’s the scary part. Some markets do label where the vegetables come from and it’s mind boggling to see the truth. For example, I’ve seen citrus fruits that come from Brazil when we grow them in Cali and Florida. What’s up with that? As for seafood, I refuse to buy any USA fish now unless I know for certain it does not come out of the gulf. Sorry, but i refuse to be data for BP and Barack Obama. Nobody with a brain can possibly buy that all that oil and toxic dispersant is poof! Gone. We will be living with an Obama legacy on that subject for many years to come as reports are buried from public view and the media obediently moves on. The Valdez was covered for years and it was a fraction of this mess. When possible, I look for fish from Maine, but MUCH of our seafood comes from other countries most of us would not choose as a vacation spot, if you get my drift.

    It’s just gobsmacking how our federal government does nothing about the dangers of our food supply because they are too busy worrying about women’s vaginas.

  22. True that Uppity. SO much of the fish available is from China. Or South America. Thailand. I buy only Maine or Alaska.
    Growing your own and canning is the way to go. Most tomatoes they sell in the store taste like- well they have no taste. Sucks as far as salad goes for most of the year here.
    Gubmint is going to do a big fat nothing as long as the “donations” keep rolling in from big ag. I take that back- they will continue to pass onerous legislation to cripple the back yard grower and the small, local farmer.

  23. Oh Cheese and Rice! I have to tell you- wrote this post yesterday morning- but Uppity and I decided to postpone it given yersterday’s breaking news. I joked to her “hell who knows what else will be recalled overnight.”
    No shit. I was just scanning headlines while waiting for the meatballs and sauce to finish- and here we go again!
    Left Coasters! HEADS UP!

    California-based Manning Beef is recalling 80,000 pounds of beef products over possible E. coli contamination, the U.S. Department of Agriculture said.

    “The establishment is recalling a variety of beef primal and subprimal cuts … and manufacturing trimmings due, in part, to insanitary conditions as reflected by an unusually high number of confirmed positive E. coli” test results, the USDA’s Food Safety and Inspection Service said on Friday.

    I’m telling you- this is getting ridiculous.
    For those unfamiliar with what primal and subprimal cuts are-

    Beef primal cuts are also known as wholesale cuts, because they are usually sold to meat markets where they are cut further. This next stage of cutting reduces the primal cuts into smaller beef cuts known as subprimal cuts, such as the tenderloin, which is cut from the short loin primal. These subprimal cuts can be cut even further, transformed into the roasts and steaks that consumers are accustomed to seeing in food stores and meat markets. A tenderloin subprimal cut, for example, can be cut into the smaller portions that are familiar to consumers, such as filet mignon steaks, chateaubriand steaks, tournedos, and bifteck steaks. These smaller cuts are also known as consumer cuts, retail cuts, or market ready cuts.


    In other words- it sounds to me like they quartered the beef and then sent it out to retailers for further processing into steaks and roasts.

  24. Now I am steaming! Just so you know this Manning Beef company has all kinds of lovely things to say about itself on it’s web page.
    FDA inspected and graded! They know each animal from birth to slaughter. They raise their animals humanely! They say they have complete confidence in their product so you can have confidence in them!
    California cows are happy right?

  25. They know each animal from birth to slaughter

    And they invite them to dinner sometimes too!

  26. The organic farm in Colorado with the tainted cantaloupes has excellent farming practices and they are absolutely mortified that their produce is contaminated.

    A lot of these contaminations are because many farms buy cheap fertilizer–unseasoned manure from industrial feed lots. Even when a farm doesn’t use that cheap fertilizer, there’s the runoff water from the feedlot contaminating the irrigation water. That farm in Colorado is in an area with lots of confinement operations.

  27. California cows are happy right?

    Well sure…..until they get invited for “dinner” of course! 😉

  28. I refuse to be data for BP and Barack Obama. Nobody with a brain can possibly buy that all that oil and toxic dispersant is poof!
    Somebody let it slip that that storm named Lee brought some gunk to beaches down there. I heard it on the teevee but can provide no more than my word. Of course whoever had the audacity and poor judgment to air a problem like that will be punished, and the evidence will be scrubbed as much as possible. And I will become known as a liar. In DC circles.

  29. Sophie- My knowledge regarding feedlots and runoff is minimal. And now I am confused about what “organic” actually means. Runoff? I had read somewhere a few years ago that there were lots of hoops to jump through to be certified organic. People ask all the time if our asparagus and eggs are organic- and I have to say no- because I am not a “certified” organic farmer. One of the things I read was that the organic farms were not allowed to use raw manure?
    Just more examples of how screwed up our agriculture system has become.

  30. Pamela- I will be your witness- I saw that same story over two or three days here. Tarballs washing up on the beaches again and all!

  31. Wow, this is for just one week? Lawd have mercy!! PMM, soon it may be easier to list the foods that are safe. Happy cows, sexy chickens, what next?

    I’m going to attempt to make a caramel apple walNUT pie. I’ve been searching for the right recipe. So far Julia Child’s tops my list. It calls for granny smith apples. I’ve never made a apple pie and was just wondering, do they have to be granny smith apples? Honey crisps are the tastiest apples I’ve ever had. Do ya think I would trash Julia’s recipe if I used them instead?

    I’m voting,

  32. viven- the reason for the granny smith apples is they are a very hard apple and tart. They hold up in the cooking. Some eating apples are too soft to hold up in pie. Have never cooked with honey crisp- but here is a test you can do.
    Peel and slice one apple just as you would for pie. (you will only use a few slices for the experiment- so sprinkle with lemon to keep the rest from turning brown) Take a few slices and saute them in a little butter. If the apple slices hold up to that and don’t become apple sauce in the pan- probably ok for pie.
    DE makes a mean pie! He might have more tips for you. I use Northern Spy or Jonathans for my pies when I actually buy apples. Could not tell you what varieties we have out in that ancient orchard- I just know which ones are good for pie by trial and error.
    I will tell you that Macs and Delicious are NOT pie apples. Unless you want apple sauce in a crust lol.

  33. I knew you’d be the one to ask. Thank you. I’ll let you know how it turns out.

    PMM, I hope you don’t mind if I go OT, some people are funny about that. I was wondering if Upps saw this in the paper today.


    I remember the post she did back in January about Kelley Williams-Bolar. It looks as though it’s happening all over the country.

  34. Vivien- we do OT here all the time- if it is interesting- bring it! (Though pajamas media is a no no)

  35. vivien- GREAT LINK! Uppity is going to want to have a look at that- I have not finished it yet- but this jumped right out

    Other school districts use services like VerifyResidence.com, which provides “the latest in covert video technology and digital photographic equipment to photograph, videotape, and document” children going from their house to school. School districts can enroll in the company’s rewards program, which awards anonymous tipsters $250 checks for reporting out-of-district students.

    Photograph and videotape MY kids? They would hear me all the way over in Europe! Pedophiles dream job that one!

  36. I know about PJM, who else is on the list?

  37. I thought that too. It doesn’t pass the smell test.

  38. I don’t know as there really is a list vivien- if you are not sure- fubar the link by copying it- then take out the “.” and type in “dot” that way no click throughs go from here and if people want to read it they can fix the link in their browser bar.

  39. Okay, since I’m already off topic. I know all the Republican candidates are relived about this.


  40. I would NEVER link to a obot or orange site. I put something up the other day, and was scared to hit (post comment) button. She didn’t kick my ass, but I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing around here.

  41. Yes you are right, Mom. I did cover that poor woman they were prosecuting for trying to get her kids a good education. It’s a shame that people have to go through such lengths just to ensure their kids have a decent future. So much for the bogus liberal plans to just dump kids in dumbed down schools and leaving them there with their free nutritious lunches and nothing learned. Makes me sick. Right here in the USA, no less.

  42. lol vivien. Just use your best judgment. If Uppity doesn’t like something- you’ll know right quick! MKBill will show up on your doorstep!

  43. It is way too quiet around here. This was always one of my favorite Katell Keineg songs that Natalie made her own.

  44. Why am I not surprised that the ‘boys’ didn’t put much faith in the tip from this woman. http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/01/us/anthrax-killer-case/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

    Just an example of how both sexes provide a different yet equally important window into the human condition. If we, as a society, continue to undervalue women, we do it at world’s risk.

  45. Look’s like there’s going to be a party in Little Rock.

    Secretary Clinton hasn’t divulged her topic, but it’s a good bet she won’t be using the Clinton Center podium to announce a challenge to her boss for the Democratic nomination.

    Or will she…..


  46. PMM: Sorry–I think I gave the wrong impression. it is hard to get certified organic. The runoff is not from the organic farm. It’s from the factory farms in the county and it contaminates the water that everyone uses. In other words, it doesn’t matter how clean you are if you live downstream from a slob.

  47. To be clearer, you are correct–organic farms are not allowed to use raw manure. I was just saying that most of the other contaminations are from using raw manure, but those are not organic farms. And this particular contamination is suspected to be from runoff into the irrigation water from some other farm: a CAFO (concentrated animal feeding operation).

  48. Sophie- thanks for the clarification. I am nowhere near as informed as I should be. I had done some reading a while back on the organic farm thing- and it seemed to me then that the hurdles were very high to become organic.
    It leaves me confused- as the tomatoes that were recalled were organic labeled as well. Is there really any standard? How do they get certified organic if their water source is contaminated? Sigh
    I need to go do some reading up on this for sure.
    There have got to be better ways. Mega farming seems to be a HUGE problem. If the local small farmer out here poisoned a bunch of customers he would be out of business in short order. And most farmers here spread manure on their fields- but we don’t get these crazy outbreaks. Maybe because they spread the stuff and then let it rot down and till it in?
    To me the ideal farm is almost self sufficient. Fruit, grain, vegetables and meat all grown on one farmstead. The waste goes back to the earth and excess production is sold, traded or given to the community poor.
    I have to keep learning and thinking on it.

  49. Sophie- are you out west? You seem to have far more info than I am getting in the news articles. I had not seen it mentioned anywhere about the run off.
    I hate the big mega animal farms. We buy our meat locally grown. Better flavor and the animals were better treated during their lives. Living like animals are supposed to live. I bought a hog from the 4-H at fair. Paid $2 a pound for it, plus $125 to have it processed, wrapped and frozen. That sounds really cheap- but that is the on the hoof price. The actual cost per pound after processing comes out to about $4.50 a pound. Still a good price for pork that I know does not have growth hormones and anti-biotics in it.

  50. How do they get certified organic if their water source is contaminated? Sigh

    Because it’s the farm/farmer that gets certified, not the community or county.

    Certification ain’t what is used to be. There’s lots of loopholes for mega-organic farms. I stick to local, small family farms, whether they’re organic or not. They may spray a bit if bugs come, but they aren’t going to poison their own kids. Big Ag sprays early and often, whether they have pest problems or not. A lot of farmers take the Farmer’s Pledge, which goes further than organic in food safety but no paperwork hoops to jump through.

    When the farmers you’re talking about spread out manure, there’s two good things going on: the manure gets time and space to season and they didn’t begin with gross factory manure (the stuff from densely packed animals fed foods they can’t digest, like corn, and shot up with antibiotics so they won’t get sick from the corn!).

    Monoculture is killing our soil and our people. You’re on the right track with the homesteading–there’s the whole circle of life there!

  51. Runoff reminds me of the big corporation I worked for, which had it’s own ‘filtration plant”. I put that in parenthesis because the whole building was a sham. It had a lovely reception area for visitors to see how a company that drips pcb’s everywhere is conscious about making sure they improved the earth. The reception room had a lovely and rather large and impressive fish tank that visitors could gaze upon as they waited for their tour. The truth is, the tank was usedf for something else when nobody was looking. They would pump the ‘filtered’ runoff water into the tank and if the fish died, they knew they were in trouble. Then they would quickly clean the tank and replace the fish. Just saying.

  52. PMM: I’m in CT. I’m a local foodie so I read a lot of food and agriculture news sites and blogs. At this point, it’s just suspected that the runoff is causing the contamination. There aren’t any studies, so to speak. But I I think it’s just common sense. If you didn’t pollute the water but someone else did, the water is still polluted!

  53. UW: That’s reprehensible. But it’s the way of so many businesses because, you know, regulations are anti-business. Of course, we can regulate the small farms to death.

    Did you know that if you were a small farmer who sells at farmers markets, you cannot sell bags of mixed salad greens because mixing up the greens is considered processing so you need a certified commercial kitchen, Same for dried beans. You can’t dry and shell the beans and sell them because that’s processing!

    However, you can use ammonia to “clean” “reclaimed” beef and don’t have to list is as an ingredient because it’s not an ingredient, it’s a processing agent!

  54. Sophie, they get away with using bleach on ‘baby carrots’ too. Despicable. Oh and they aren’t baby carrots at all.
    I even had a guy from the “carrot museum” actually post comments on this one, attempting to defend the indefensible.

  55. I remember that post! And the funny thing is, you can just put carrots in a Debbie Myer’s green bag and they last for weeks and weeks! Look Ma, no Clorox!

  56. Yes Sophie, I was just readling over the hilarious comments on that post and the exchange with the guy from the “carrot museum” who thought we were in the wrong (and “biased”!) for objecting to bleach and fake baby carrots. I noticed that your first comment on the blog was that day!

  57. How nice! 11/20 is my Uppity anniversary day!

  58. brought together by bleached carrots!

  59. HAHAHAH from big pink

    We’re sure Barack Obama is already thinking that if Michelle Obama somehow gets herself impregnated that might help him get some votes. But that is a gruesome task few want to take on, let alone Barack.


  60. I can smell food posts across the whole internets!

  61. glad karen isn’t around. I just ate a big fat meatloaf sandwich.

  62. Uppity, I often bought those crappy “baby” carrots until your post came out on them. I’m back to real organic carrots and peeling them. I think thats why I bought those weird packaged things, you didn’t have to peel them.

  63. Uncomfortable truths, notwithstanding that we’re never sorry to see a goatf*cker greet his god:

  64. You guys HAVE to take the locks off your fridges. Karen is so hungry, she just snuck in here and was eating my TOFU! She wants YOUR food, but you’re making it too hard for her!

  65. So, shouldn’t we be “respecting” the faith of these two terrorists, as we did with Osama? Where are THEIR bodies – shouldn’t we be giving them a quick burial at sea with an Islamic prayer? Maybe where they were killed isn’t by water – so we should be finding out what the proper respectful burial is on land.

    Or are they going to be willing for some reason to produce THESE bodies?

    (something never seemed right about that quick disposal of Osama)

  66. NES, from the article you linked:

    What’s most striking about this is not that the U.S. Government has seized and exercised exactly the power the Fifth Amendment was designed to bar (“No person shall be deprived of life without due process of law”)….”

    Does “person” specifically refer to “citizens” – or does it refer to all “persons”? I know many take it to mean “only citizens” (and maybe it does), but my question is literally does it mean “only citizens”?

    I just remember when Bush was doing all his stuff, everyone was justifying his behavior saying he was doing it to non-citizens – and I always wondered if the constitution, when it speaks of human rights, was really only talking about citizens, or about humans. They talk about “god given rights” in the constitution, so I always wondered why god would only have rights flowing from him going only to Americans. I always thought it meant that our country felt that all humans had these rights, and our country was going to respect that, even if other countries didn’t.

  67. I think these two terrorists must be in several unidentifiable pieces. I believe they were hit by a missile.

  68. I believe “person” under the Fifth Amdmt. means any human being, Lorac. There is a case, however, to be made for enemy combatants not having due process rights. But, this case makes people queasy because a US natural born citizen is involved and no one wants to trust a president, least of all Obama, with that kind of power. It goes against the DNA of the Republic — killing citizen-enemies of the state at the ruler’s will is repugnant to Americans who battled against the rights of kings. I wish they would conduct these assassinations under the cover of plausibile deniability (like the Israelis do); it’d do less violence to the Constitution. Appearances are essential to the rule of law and must be preserved.

  69. cover of plausibile deniability (like the Israelis do);

    Help! What does this mean? lol

    Does it mean, “do it, but don’t admit to it, and make it so it doesn’t look like it necessarily was you who was doing it”….?

    I agree with what you’re saying. I’m just trying to understand the different viewpoints better. Didn’t think I’d have to be thinking about this stuff once Bush left….

  70. Does it mean, “do it, but don’t admit to it, and make it so it doesn’t look like it necessarily was you who was doing it”….?

    Yes, that’s exactly what I mean. The way I see it, we’re going through very unusual times in this war declared on us by the Islamists. We have to be effective in fighting them, but we need to do it in a way that doesn’t openly shred our Constitution and our political narrative. We need to be able to return to something when this madness is over.

  71. Somebody pass me the TUMS. And a toothbrush, please.

    Apparently that stuff at Lorac’s house isn’t food.

  72. Good article. http://nymag.com/news/politics/powergrid/chris-christie-2011-10/
    Also reminded me of what I thought in ’04, Hillary should’ve run. We might’ve been in her second term now, and Bawaaack would be gearing up to run.

    Almost exactly eight years ago, Hillary Clinton was deliberating, intensely and in secret, over a fateful political decision: Should she launch a late entry into the 2004 presidential race? Much of the Democratic Establishment, from A-list donors and officeholders to activists and ordinary voters, were beseeching her to jump in. Her party’s existing candidates were widely seen as underwhelming—inadequate to the task of taking on an eminently beatable incumbent. John Kerry was too flaccid and Howard Dean too hot, Dick Gephardt past his sell-by date and John Edwards a talking haircut. Clinton’s senior advisers were all for the idea, as was her husband. What they were telling her, often in these words, was that “this could be your time.”

    Clinton weighed the possibility all the way into November. In the end, however, Hillary concluded it was just too soon for her to make a presidential run. That voters would punish her for breaking a campaign vow to serve her first Senate term in full. That 2004 was not, in fact, her time—2008 or 2012 would be. Clinton’s assessment was rational, conventional, and highly prudent. But then the big wheel of history turned and rendered it mistaken.

  73. Karen is so hungry, she just snuck in here and was eating my TOFU!

    Well SOMEBODY has to eat that crap!

  74. I heard on NPR (I believe) that the land used for the cantaloupes was previously owned by someone else, who fertilized the property — using “treated” human waste. I have not heard anything else about this. I hope it is not true.


  75. Gross. I’ve heard they do that in Mexico & S. America. They also use harsher pesticides down there. I can’t eat grapes from Chile, for instance, they give me a raspy throat, but I can eat Calif grapes all day.

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