Let’s recap and clarify: When is a tax not a tax? When it Is a tax. Unless it’s not a tax, unless…

Just saying.

139 Responses

  1. It’s called gouging the taxpayer by twisting the mandate into a pretzel until you get a tax out of it.

  2. By deciding that “Mandate” is Constitutional because it is a tax, Roberts has probably guaranteed that Obama will lose in Nov. Roberts also has likely opened the legal door for challenge of other govt regulations that are based on the Commerce Clause and perhaps the most important short term effect is that the SCOTUS has been removed from the Dems campaign strategy.

    Obots are cheering that the won the big prize. I think that Roberts gave them a big surprise, a White Elephant.

    “A white elephant is an idiom for a valuable but burdensome possession of which its owner cannot dispose and whose cost (particularly cost of upkeep) is out of proportion to its usefulness or worth. The term derives from the story that the kings of Siam (now Thailand) were accustomed to make a present of one of these animals to courtiers who had rendered themselves obnoxious, in order to ruin the recipient by the cost of its maintenance. In modern usage, it is an object, scheme, business venture, facility, etc., considered to be without use or value.[1]”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_elephant

  3. Hmph, Mom said if you told lies your tongue would turn black and fall off. And then there is Liar Liar Pants on Fire.
    When he finally goes down in flames he is going to make the epic fires out West look like a backyard BBQ.

  4. Do not underestimate the momentum this gives Obama. Dead people vote, you know.

  5. I’m sad to say that I agree with you mcnorman. I’m afraid Teh Won’s poll numbers will go up with this ruling. On a lighter note….remember when Obama made history by playing his 100th round of golf? Well, here’s what a real leader does……cue Hillary Clinton.
    http://news.yahoo.com/frequent-flier-clinton-hits-100-country-mark-073258740.html

  6. Romney just hit $1 million in donations.

  7. PMM / UW–I was visiting over at BIG PINK-

    He is PISSED-He is Yelling in CAPS——-If it wasn’t so SICKENING—it would be hysterical

    HE ABSOLUTELY ABHORS THIS PRESIDENT !! He is waiting for the Contempt charges, to get the results

  8. I hope you’re right SHV. There’s gotta be a hook in there somewhere. No question now. It IS a tax. So now the middle class people who had to drop their insurance because of the major hikes know that, in addition to not being covered, they are going to pay a tax fine for it.

  9. Not only do the premiums go up, but the changes are big. If you go with the cheaper plans, your docs may not want to work with them.

  10. And as someone at H44 said, insurance may become taxable income now.

  11. Mcnorman- I would not be surprised if they called it income- the tax and spend crowd has been after taxing benefits as income for a long long time.

  12. BTW, those waivers are they now considered tax exemptions?

  13. Nancy is having a big party to celebrate the ramming of the unknown detailed document today.

  14. Yes PMM, they have been after that for awhile. Nothing is safe anymore.

  15. Nancy was stumbling, sounded like she had a stroke on the floor. Hard to tel though, because she is such a horrid speaker to begin with.

  16. hahahahahaha

    Didn’t hear her, still working on the hard drive. Keeping up on the Android.

  17. Holy Chit. Did you all see mcnorman’s link on why Roberts voted that way? We need a lawyer to weigh in.

  18. MCN: LOL__your on fire girlfriend

  19. 11 Democrats have voted for the contempt so far.
    oops…up to 15

  20. CNN prefers to cover the Democrats who walked out. I assume the black caucus.

  21. It’s over. One Republican voted no. I wonder who?

  22. “hope you’re right SHV. There’s gotta be a hook in there somewhere. No question now. It IS a tax. So now the middle class people who had to drop their insurance because of the major hikes know that, in addition to not being covered, they are going to pay a tax fine for it.”
    **********
    I don’t think that this will have much change in the health care picture for the next decade of so. The ‘It’s a tax” determination may make it easier to for Congress to repeal the Mandate or the whole law but that doesn’t help the bottom line, Obamacare is fatally flawed financially and will be dead by 2020. But what will be next??

    One of the things that made no sense to me as far a the benefit to the insurance industry is how do they benefit by more rapid destruction of employment based heath insurance coverage. After 2013, companies will be very tempted to take the $2800 tax (fine) for not providing coverage vs, say, $4-6000/worker for insurance. Perhaps the profit margin is greater on the basic (junk) insurance that people will be forced to buy.

    The bottom line is that with the changes (read expensive) in health care and employment over the past few decades, the insurance model no longer works. Unfortunately it will require a lot more “pain” by a lot more people before real change can happen.

  23. The vote was 256-66 in favor of contempt vs. Holder. 17 Democrats sided with Republicans in voting for contempt.

  24. SHV, it’s not Affordable Healthcare. It’s insurance. And not affordable insurance at that. It’s a travesty upon America, especially the middle class and single payers. And you are right. This will create more job losses. Of course, all the Friends have waivers. And that’s, like someone said, now a tax exemption.

  25. Holder is making a statement. I have it muted so I don’t know what he’s saying.

  26. Cnn graphic “Misguided and Politically Motivated”…

  27. I watched it on C-Span- many more than just the Black Caucus walked out. Petulant asshats.
    As for Nancy- I too thought she was having a stroke or something. She was not only stumbling over words- but completely mixing them up. She sounded just like my Mom when we knew she was having a stroke and the doctor offered her some Tylenol. (TRUE story- NOT kidding- that did happen to my Mom and Sister and I were both there)

  28. […] From UppityWoman Let’s recap and clarify: When is a tax not a tax? When it Is a tax. Unless it’s not a tax, unles… […]

  29. If I were still a practicing Democrat, I would want to warn my erstwhile party to perhaps curb their celebrations long enough to beware a Chief Justice bearing gifts.

    Can you say Trojan Horse?

  30. God that right, Vet. The republicans (and that means Roberts) don’t hand out gifts, particularly not in an election year. Just saying.

  31. The Dow recovered most of today’s losses in the last 20 minutes. No insider game playing going on there. Nah.

  32. DAMN! I just fished Anthony out of spam with a great video posted at 11 AM! I saw it but didn’t realize it was on the “unapproved’ list! I HATE that! You can’t tell if you don’t look to see if it needs “Approval” You just think everybody sees it.

  33. Listened to an historical novel a few days ago while driving 1100 miles in 17 hours. One of the “jokes” was about the French king being treated with Mercury for his “French” disease (Syphilis). Which reminded me of the old doctor joke of “One night with Venus, a lifetime on Mercury”…..Which get to the point the the Obots are getting their one night with Venus but it will be a political lifetime of “it’s a tax” and curbs on the Commerce Clause.

    (Oh well, you had to be in the car at mile 950 to appreciate the humor)

  34. Do me a favor, everyone, please?

    Don’t send me an email unless somebody is dead.

    I can’t take this anymore. I have a backup of emails so long I can’t even count them.

  35. So far we have some wonderful options for a multiple guess question:

    Chief Justice Roberts voted to uphold Obamacare because:

    1) He took one for the team thus setting a useful precedent for the future

    2) He thought a White Elephant was the perfect gift for Ferdinand to auction off at he and Imelda’s next dinner party with John Travolta*

    3) He did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express

    4) He did stay at a Holiday Inn Express but they were out off coffee

    5) He thought a large Trojan Horse would give Ferdinand and Imelda a place to store with all those wedding/birthday/baby/bar mitzvah/graduation/first communion gifts from the registry

    6) He thought it would be funny to post you tube videos of Romney just saying TAX TAX TAX.

    (opps that Inquirer says that might no longer be a go might have to revisit George Clooney or that Sarah person – not that one – the other one).

  36. SHV – more than a white elephant – a time bom or as vet proposed, a trojan horse.

    Think about it. Chief Justice, Roberts vote was carefully crafted as revenge for the way Obama treated him and Supremes at a State of Union. He was pissed at O taking his court to the woodshed and he showed it.

    Bet he suggested the tax and went with the vote as a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down with the rest of the court and to lull the dems into thinking O is a shoo in. There is a ton of anger out there and it is strong enough to bring in both dem and indey voters for Rommney – even if they have to hold their nose.

    Meanwhile the peacock struts while an abyss opens beneath him as once again pride goeth before a fall.

  37. I would have to agree with Uppity that no one was going to hand BO and his gang a gift. More like handing him a rope.

    Oh – and yes – in reference to a comment from the previous thread those fun loving we a killing the earth by our existence and/or the earth is going to explode from all the heat we generate are back out. It is officially summer in DC.

    Better yet, now there is a group that links Global crap and the 2012 silliness. because, you know those crazy Mayans just knew Environmental Change would end the world come December this year.

  38. I am not sure if you all saw this but I thought you all could use a laugh today.
    100 ‘Confidential’ Postcards from Hillary Clinton

    On Thursday, Latvia will officially become the 100th country that Hillary Clinton has visited as Secretary of State. Earlier this month, Clinton beat Madeleine Albright’s record of 96 countries, because as she says, “nothing substitutes for showing up.”
    Very funny.
    http://www.policymic.com/articles/10338/100-confidential-postcards-from-hillary-clinton

  39. Don’t know how good or bad the Supremes’ decision is, but at least for now I get to keep this:

    http://www.pciplan.com/index.html

  40. SHV, on June 28, 2012 at 6:01 PM said:
    Listened to an historical novel a few days ago while driving 1100 miles in 17 hours.

    QUICK!! Someone recruit SHV for the UW National Pie-athlon

  41. Someone asked earlier which Republicans voted against “Contempt”:
    Republicans who voted against contempt:

    Rep. Steve LaTourette, R-Ohio

    Rep. Scott Rigell, R-Va.

    A total of 108 Democrats did not vote. Only one Republican did not vote. One lawmaker, Rep. Dan Lipinski, D-Ill., also voted present.

  42. Interesting. Ohio and Va. Both important for the general.

  43. From our Dear Anthony, enjoy!

  44. Poor William Shatner lost his pants in the TSA gropathon line.

    Star Trek legend William Shatner was left nursing a bruised ego when his trousers fell down during an airport security check in front of dozens of fellow travellers.

    The actor was queuing at Los Angeles International Airport to catch a flight to South Africa when he was singled out for a search by officials.

    He had decided to wear loose-fitting clothing for the journey and did not have a belt holding his pants up – and he was left red-faced when they fell down, exposing his underwear.

    Shatner says, “It was awful to have people looking at me with my pants down, probably the most embarrassing thing that’s ever happened to me… It was a long flight so I wanted to wear loose clothing because I didn’t want anything to bind me.”

  45. It’s cooled down to 105 so I guess it’s time to go out and see what is going on.

  46. According to this analysis, Roberts may have given Romney a huge gift:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/28/curl-roberts-to-the-rescue-for-romney/

  47. Just at I have known for a long time. SUPREME COURT is politically filthy. It is no longer the highest court to depend upon. It is an arm of the two political parties and the filth surrounding their existence. Worse yet, they are an arm of the most extreme of the two political parties.

  48. What’s Shatner worried about. Who the hell wants to see him in his skivvies?

    My elderly neighbor brough over….are you all ready?

    A pie.

  49. o/t
    A most wonderful article NY Times Magazine on Hillary rock star Diplomat. Good 8 pages and most comments are warm and so right on. They are loving some Hillary over there.
    Sorry if this was linked up thread, I don’t remember where I got the info.
    A few lines were a little patronizing, but mostly it lets her light shine. Rise Hillary rise.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/magazine/hillary-clintons-last-tour-as-a-rock-star-diplomat.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

  50. Mittens raised $2.5 million online since the ruling this morning.

  51. UW: I’m not in ROMNEY’S camp, BUT-they have the ammunition to defeat him, and I want that more than anything———–If it’s the social issues-let the youn’ins worry about what they took for granted-right now it’s the economy, economy, economy-

    I see a different Romney–a man who has learned from his mistakes-he was an ass (not too big, boring more than anything), But I believe he’s ready-will I vote for him- BUT NOT UNTIL I SEE HIM GO AFTER OBAMA FULLY LOADED AND TAKE NO PRISONERS- & earns my respect

    UW: there is still 18 million of us———–most of us WON’T FORGET

  52. Reading extension of what someone said earlier. The ACA only needs 51 votes in the senate to be overturned. Because it is a tax now, it falls under reconciliation. No cloture is necessary so those 60 votes aren’t needed to get it to vote.

  53. I have woman running for office all over WNY——I signed the petition for everyone of them-except Kathy Hochul-she’s in Obama’s camp-can’t do it———–I will be there in Nov voting for every one of them as long as they earn it

  54. UW: what does that mean————51 votes to overturn—the LAW-is that what you mean

  55. UW, come on…you know what are moms said about always wearing clean undies. Perhaps, Capt Kirk forgot. Oops.

  56. yes michelina

  57. I’m going to visit crawdad-will be back to say g’night

  58. I will be there in Nov voting for every one of them as long as they earn it

    Yes, they should work for the vote.

  59. MCN————–COOL————-sorry my age is showing with my words-I don’t understand today’s words-I do they don’t make sense

  60. Shatner should be more embarrassed about his rendition of “Lucy In the Sky with Diamonds”!

  61. Kathy Hochul voted for the “contempt” chare and she is dem-it is election time I would like to believe she did it for HERSELF-but I will see

  62. The reconciliation vote is very important. I understand why that turd Roberts punted. Congress created the turd and Congress must discard it.

  63. We don’t want even to know what the TSA or the line of travelers witnessed dwp.

  64. dwp, forget Lucy in the Sky. What about Tambourine Man?

  65. The GOP-controlled House is not wasting time in scheduling a vote to repeal Obamacare:

    http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-house-republicans-schedule-vote-to-repeal-obamas-healthcare-law-20120628,0,5078128.story

  66. Creedance Clearwater Revival and Tina Turner, Move Over!

  67. Exxxxxxxxxxxactly Tony. 51 votes for senate. Finito.

  68. good nite uppity’s =until tomorrow———–I’m getting bacjk into HILLARY mode- I was on this damn computer morning, noon & night that whole year-I gained thirthy pounds——OBAMA YOU WILL PAY FOR THAT—-( I losi 20 of it only)

  69. Simple majority in house. Finito.

    Problem is: Wont get to senate vote, harry will keep it in committee

  70. Nite Michelina.

  71. LORAC ON BOARD FOR TOMORROW.

    Could YOU be a Scientist, Girl?? Find out what it takes, tomorrow.

  72. Yay lorac!

  73. My elderly neighbor brought over….are you all ready?

    A pie.

    Well bless his heart. Is this the one you’ve done kind things for previously?

  74. Yup. An elderly couple, Fredster. She brought the pie. Blueberry. Packed nice and tight. Not too sweet. Definitely the old time flaky, lardy crust. You know the drill.

  75. Definitely the old time flaky, lardy crust.

    STOP!!!

  76. We put some Haagen Dazs French Vanilla on it.

  77. Interesting:

    Because of the volatility around the time the decision was reported, trading was halted for five health care stocks, a spokeswoman for the New York Stock Exchange said: HCA, Community Health Systems, Tenet Healthcare, WellPoint and Health Management Associates. She said all five stocks returned to normal trading shortly after the halts. She would not say how many stocks are halted on a typical trading day.

    Under market rules, trading of a stock is halted for five minutes if its price swings more than 10 percent in a five-minute period.

  78. UW’s torture is worse than waterboarding….

  79. I knew she was going to say that about the ice cream, damnit!

  80. Ok so Steadman is held in criminal contempt. So what happens now? He goes to dinner? I mean, seriously, exactly what does that mean to him, what with every chicago thug standing on the sidelines to take care of things for him.

  81. Hey we earned the pie. And seriously, when this lady bakes you sit there and eat and you can’t even talk. It’s like a transcendental experience.

  82. Does he get sent home with no din-din?

  83. When I was a young teacher, I had this landlady who just loved me. She would call me and tell me to come to the door to the stairs and hand me a plate of meatballs that would make you cry when you ate them.

  84. One must always have French Vanilla on hand for suprise occasions. if you get some, somebody might bring you a pie.

  85. Hey we earned the pie

    I agree, due to your kindness with your elderly neighbors. Stlill, ya couldn’t left off that stuff with the ice cream..esp. Fr. Vanilla. Waaaaahhhh!!

  86. Haha! Steadman! I think Holder looks like Oprah’s fake boyfriend too!

  87. French Vanilla is good with just French Vanilla.

  88. Let me ask you this. What would happen if one of our neighbors got caught selling American guns to Mexican cartel shitbags and some Americans got killed with them? Take your time. I’ll wait.

  89. Imust, it took me a couple of beats to get that. I’m slow.

  90. Never see the light of day again.

  91. I really don’t know why Oprah doesn’t just say she’s a lesbian. FCS what’s the big deal. Nobody watches her on that corny network anyways.

  92. Yeah, I agree on Oprah. What is she afraid of anyway? She’s Oprah, she’s practically her own country.

  93. You know, the I Tanked Because Of Teh One Network.

  94. Never see the light of day again.

    You’re damned right. It’s called Treason.

  95. Stedman & Holder side by side

  96. Could be twins. Or maybe the same guy. He’s got the time to be AG since he doesn’t have sex with Oprah.

  97. ROFL!!! You know, have you ever seen them together in one place??

  98. Nope. That settles it.

  99. Tell you this, though. Stedman is a damned sight better looking thatn Gayle is.

  100. imust: LOL on the picture of Stedholder.

  101. Stedholder! Here’s Oprah and Gayle together.

    I guess they’d be Opayle?

  102. or Gayprah.

  103. Okay, that had soda spurting out of my mouth! :0

  104. No, not my nose, thank goodness~

  105. I vote for Gayprah.

  106. Soda through the nose. Burning bubbles…

  107. another vote Gayprah.

  108. I just had to run to Wally-World (only thing open after 9 p.m. and I just saw that apparently the Wal-mart people are out at this time. Friggin’ store was full of ’em. Thank God all I had to get was a small fan for the 100+ heat and a small extension cord.

  109. No, not my nose, thank goodness~

    Damn.

  110. Soda through the nose. Burning bubbles…

    Score.

  111. Score.

    Soooo evil.

  112. ……which is why you keep coming back, yes?

  113. Hmmm. The wordsmiths are out tonight.

    Sharpen your pencils!

  114. ……which is why you keep coming back, yes?

    Of course!! 😆

  115. Agree that Oprah should just come out fgs. Funny about Holder & that Stedman guy.

    So this is the 1st time I’ve had today to check out the barkacare ruling. I was mindblown. I thought they would kill the mandate. I just watched Jon Stewart and he made fun of both Mitt & bark. He had videos of barky saying the mandate wasn’t a “tax”, and supposedly that’s the peg Roberts hung it on. Bizarre!

  116. Hey socal!! My internet was down earlier and I was out doing stuff so I didn’t hear it for awhile. I reeally am unsure what to really think. Because of the AFA I’ve got that pre-existing condtion plan which, while not cheap is a lot better than anything else I had found. That, however, expires Jan. 2014. But I can only take ti one thing at a time. I’ve got coverage now and I’ll worry about later…later.

  117. Yes, I admit I really don’t understand most of it.

  118. Stewart made tons of fun of Mitt also, and showed what a flaming hypocrite he is. The more I see Mitt open his mouth, the dumber he looks. Not as dumb as Rick Perry, but I would say he is pushing GWB dumb.

  119. Shoot! I always forget about Jon Stewart. Maybe I can catch it online tomorrow.

  120. uppity:

    I know we don’t agree on a lot of things but I am going to give you a link that explains that the next bubble is Health Care. These links cover the history, Dr.s, insurance, regulation and why free market, smaller government is good. If you don’t read all the links please at least read the first three. It won’t be long and we will all be losers and for generations to come.

    http://mises.org/daily/3737/Why-ObamaCare-Will-Fail-A-Reading-List

  121. Rose I will do that, sister.

    But you know free market priced my ass right out of the market. Nobody can afford thousands of dollars a month for heatlh insurance for a family on single pay. Millions have fallen through the cracks with this bogus ‘reform”. The problem with the free market as i see it is
    1. Life and death are now attached to stocholder’s bottom lines. Nobbody’s life shoud be subject to this and
    2 Price fixing in regions have priced people out of the market. I myself incurred a nearly 50 percent increase over a period of 14 months. I was paying for everybody and now I am paying for nobody. I paid an impressive six figures in health insurance in the past decade

    What would make me happY? Removing the anti trust exemption these health insurance theives have that allow them to fix prices and monopolize entire regions. Let me cross state lines for my insurance to force competition. Now THAT’s reform. But most of all, make health insurance not for profit. Doesn’t have to be owned by gov. to do that. But Bottom Lines and profit targets are killing people.

  122. Aww, thank you for taking the time to read. We do not have a free market–that’s the problem. It has been regulated out of existence.

  123. Well I wouldn’t call giving these people a free license to fix prices among them and anti trust exemptions much regulation. Nobody you know gets an anti trust free ride with a monopoly. An unlevel playing field is not capitalism. It’s monopoly and control. Making it illegal to get the same drugs we make here from Canada at a fraction of the cost is not capitalism, it’s crony capitalism. We pay to subsidize research and then we pay through the nose when we could get the same drugs in another country. Either we are going to have a free market or we aren’t. Right now free market means Pick and Choose which rules we follow.

    Under this current version of “capitalism” only the rich and the poor will get insurance.

    And the rest can eat shit and die.

    I learned something interesting about statistics when my brother died a million to one death. Statistics mean nothing until you become one of them.

  124. I think you will find those articles take on big pharma, patents and buying drugs from other countries. i didn’t see anything that directly related to anti-trust but I agree with you on being able to go across state lines to purchase insurance if we want. I’ve wondered for years what happened to the monopoly laws. Be sure to note the writers. I think the first article is written by a cardiologist. Anyway, I liked their thinking. By the way, I am shovel ready, I am 68.

  125. Yeah I’m definitely shovel ready Rose. By the way did you see my post on SCOTUS day. It’s the one below this one. You as what happened to anti trust lawss? They are alive and well unless you are an insurance company.

  126. FYI the original anti trust exemption for insurers was when health insurance was getting its start. It was a chance for them go get established. I think they’ve been long established. Congress did the bullshit kabuki dance about removing their exemption back in 2009 but in the end they buried it and it still stands. And that was brought to you by both parties.

  127. LOL I remember when cereal companies got caught price fixing and they went after them with ballistics. But health insurance, apparently is not as important to people’s lives as corn flakes.

  128. Are anti-trust the same thing as a monopoly? Guess, I am not sure what they are.

  129. Anti trust laws prevent the intent of monopoly, Rose. They are designed to make sure that companies don’t do what health insurers are doing.

  130. There’s another issue that blocks competition and that is at states’ levels. Some states mandate what should be insured, which leaves out crossing state lines. I kind of think I should decide what I want in my insurance policy,but then I create a danger to others. For example, I can assure you I do not need maternity coverage. But if everybody who didn’t need maternity coverage stopped paying for it, it might be completely cost prohibitive for those who do need it.

  131. Yes, I read that thread but apparently didn’t pay close enough attention to the anti-trust comment you made at the end. My bad.

    I also agree with you that both parties are at fault. They both need to lose the power they wield especially via regulation that penalizes us while appeasing the lobbiest.

    I haven’t the slightest idea how this could ever be accomplished b/c so many are corrupt to the bone-marrow.

    Enough doom and gloom. I’m gonna go watch some T.V. Thanks again for spending some time reading what real free enterprise and capitalism looks like. Wish we had it. 😦

  132. Rose, on those things, we DO agree.

    Careful of TV. Rots the brain. lol.

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