Brexit or Bremain

This is currently where it’s at.


Doom! Gloom! Armageddon!


Otherwise, this is an open thread.


205 Responses

  1. Wonderful Sophie, thanks for a new, clean thread!

  2. With 5.2% Reporting

    Remain a member of the European Union

    Leave the European Union

  3. Even Lindsay Lohan’s in on it!

  4. Sophie thanks for the JK Rowling link. That was an amazing read.

  5. I’m rooting hard for Remain, of course. I think that for however little or much it is worth, if Leave wins, we are going to see all sorts of speculation that we are now in a situation reminiscent of Europe in 1929, and the rise of xenophobic fascism. And Trump of course mirrors that. It is very unsettling. Generally angry and impotent people trying to affix blame on others. Trump has simplified this, of course. Everything that frustrates people, he somehow blames on Hillary Clinton. Hitler blamed it on the Jews.

  6. If you want to watch live:

  7. imust, this stuck out for me:

    However, Remain are finding many ears closed to their grim prognostications. The economic crash of 2008 left a pervasive feeling in its wake that financial institutions are not to be trusted. ‘The establishment’ has become a term of blanket abuse. We live in a cynical and insecure age. Trust in disinterested sources has been shaken, while popular culture glorifies the hunch and the gut feeling. In America, they call this ‘post-truth politics’. Forget the facts, feel the fury.

  8. I don’t have a Facebook account, but if anyone has any gun control thoughts they would like to post to my idiot Rep’s facebook page, be my guest:

    She eliminates them frequently and is having to work hard to scrub the page.

    (little devil emoji here)

  9. Yep.

    feel the fury.

    Aka: Feel the Bern and Make America Great Again

  10. Remain is picking up steam!

    17.8% Reporting

    Remain a member of the European Union

    Leave the European Union

  11. I hope it remains, it’s the best for Europe as a whole, the Unity can make them strong, specially in this very difficult time of displacment of millions.

  12. It’s nice that for once another country’s political craziness is overshadowing ours. Currently:

    In: 50.1
    Out: 49.9

  13. its going to be Brexit

  14. just hearing this….

    Sanders tells Colbert tonight he will not be endorsing HRC against Trump NO Sanders at our convention!

    The bastrd needs kicking

  15. moon, if that happens we can expect Trump to discuss how our English “brothers and sisters” voted against immigration so US should do the same.

  16. So it looks like the UK may want to get outta Dodge. Still early, but folks are upset by their safety net being taxed.

    I feel the same way about amnesty in the US. I do not agree with the Dems immigration policies, but I do not like Rump’s bs either.

  17. Sanders tells Colbert tonight he will not be endorsing HRC

    Eff that stinking rathole.

    No speech at the Convention.

  18. I would be worried about Colbert except he is 3rd in the late night ratings. Fallon and Kimmel both kill him nightly.

  19. The people that are doing well with the UK want to stay, the poor and those that are not doing well want out.

  20. The Democratic Party needs to primary Sanders a**. What a douchebag. He might be throwing the election to Trump. What an awful human being.

  21. Samders is a poor loser. Wow!

  22. Off-hour trading on the Dow during this Bretix voting results so far…this is our 401Ks, folks.

  23. Sh*t. This evening is just full of “great” news .

  24. Wow Moon. Thanks for the update. I didn’t expect anything else from him. He is proving to be the turd that will not flush. Just keeps bobbing up and down in the big toilet bowl that is his life. How sad to be his age and still act like a 2 year old child. 💩 Nope, history will not be kind to him at all.

    I really hope he gets to play no part at the convention. After all he is not a Democrat. Just a sexist loser.

  25. Nina Turner on MSNBC right now saying about the Berners, “A lot of them are going to vote 3rd party”.

  26. I might have an iota of respect for Sanders, if he was calling an end to the undemocratic caucuses, instead of railing against closed primaries. I find him extremely hypocritical. So, when is he going to withdraw and lose his Secret Service detail.

  27. Saw that (Nina on Lawrence).

  28. Farage sounds like a cross between Sanders & Trump…angry white male.

  29. I must, I have to mute the television everytime Turner comes on. I cannot stand her. 3rd party doesn’t surprise me. They will be voting for Dr. Stein, who doesn’t believe in vaccines.

  30. I think he just meant he wasn’t endorsing her in speech tonight. He will prolong this right up to convention. Still sounds like he thinks his votes should count more than Hillary’s votes which is disgraceful and indecent. Why does he think his dictatorship would be better than Trump’s? The only difference is that his racism and misogyny is not overt.

  31. Dr. Jill Stein believes very much in vaccines and has no faith in holistic healing but gave the weaselist answer on earth, pandering to the worst of the wingnuts that would be attracted to her.

  32. Brassy, Samders may not be as overt as Trump, but his actions show sexism and misogyny. I don’t think he would be acting like this, if his rival was a male. Hillary has 3.8 million more votes than he does and he is acting like his votes count more than hers. I can’t even listen to him anymore.

  33. Sophie, I read that Stein was against vaccines. So, this is incorrect?

  34. Brassy Rebel, on June 23, 2016 at 11:10 PM said:
    I think he just meant he wasn’t endorsing her in speech tonight. He will prolong this right up to convention. Still sounds like he thinks his votes should count more than Hillary’s votes which is disgraceful and indecent. Why does he think his dictatorship would be better than Trump’s? The only difference is that his racism and misogyny is not overt.


    It was overt enough to the primary voters..that’s why HRC won by a large percentage women and minorities.

  35. Birdgal, I need to find what I read. She pandered to the anti-vaxxers and it sounded like she was on their side, but you could tell she didn’t believe what she was saying. At least that was the impression I got when I read it.

  36. Found it. Obviously, I got the impression that the article author wanted me to get!

  37. The berniebots that won’t vote for Hillary, most were never for her in the first place and will just vote for another sexist, entitled man.

    No way Hillary should bend one inch to try and win them over.

  38. The Brits are buying US Treasury bonds. Because we seem safe. Meanwhile, we have Bernie and Trump, wing nuts threatening our stability.

  39. Scotland looks like it wanted to Remain. Bet they wish they’d voted in favor of their own independence.

  40. Sophie, That was a bunch of gobbley garbage. She didn’t say anything worthwhile or what her position or belief might be. She sounded like a nut.

  41. You can tell she is in favor of vaccines but didn’t want to turn off the typical greenies.


  43. Sophie, It did sound that way, but talk about pandering! Jeez…..

  44. SophieCT, on June 23, 2016 at 11:38 PM said:
    Scotland looks like it wanted to Remain. Bet they wish they’d voted in favor of their own independence.

    Concern is if Brexit wins, Scotland will hold another referendum to leave the UK.

    BTW, Sky News just called it that OUT has won.

  45. I hope our 401K”s don’t take too big of a hit.

  46. I am in the UK, this is a historic vote for freedom. I am so pleased.

  47. Voting, likely Scotland will have another referendum. The biggest argument to remain in the UK was so they wouldn’t be outside the EU.

  48. Watching Japan’s news…NHK for anyone interested…and the Nikkei index is now down 7.39 %. There has also been a rush to buy the yen. Bad news for them since that is going to really hurt their exports.

    Expect China to cook their books…they always do.

  49. ?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

  50. BTW, the UK was the second largest economy in the EU behind Germany. Third largest contributor behind Germany and France.

  51. Another off-shoot of the Brexit vote….referendum possible in Northern Ireland to reunite with Free Ireland.

  52. Northern Irish, rubbish, nobody in NI wants reunification, they cant afford too, I am half northern irish you know……….Mom’s home.

  53. moon, just reporting what they are saying on Sky News. No disrespect intended.

  54. Moon, are people happy over there now?

  55. oh i know that votinghillary, even the catholics in NI dont want to join ireland……lose all the freebies.

  56. Well I am, yes they are, The EU has been a total boil on the ass of the UK. Something had to give.

  57. The Eu will likely break up now….Italy wants out, so does france, holland and a few others…… will probably implode now.

  58. moononpluto, on June 24, 2016 at 12:40 AM said:
    oh i know that votinghillary, even the catholics in NI dont want to join ireland……lose all the freebies.


    moon, that is like Republican saying “blacks vote Dem so they don’t lose their freebies”. A tad disappointed in your response.

  59. Well, at least Frank is having a good night….

  60. The markets aren’t going to like this, they aren’t going to like this at all.

  61. Germany must be freaking out with the UK leaving. The UK had the biggest economy below Germany.

    Germany is going to watch their economy tank trying to bail out Greece and other poorer countries without the help of the UK, and it also has a huge burden with the influx of refuges.

  62. They aren’t, Sweet Sue. But this is again a great example of SPECULATORS over-influencing the global markets.

  63. Japan already closed their markets. I wonder if we will close ours tomorrow?

  64. And, God forbid, our future Jackass-in-Chief tweeted this while Scotland overwhelmingly voted “in” tonight:

  65. Moderators, delete my post at 1:31 am…it is a joke account. Pretty say that I thought this would be EXACTLY what he would say.

  66. I just heard Bernie gave a speech and not once acknowledged Hillary or her historic nomination. It’s time for him to quit already! Enough! So tired of his blabbering. He should’ve run for President in 08 or 12 if he was so serious. I mean omg can’t believe he’s allowed to get away with this sh*t. He was defeated by a huge margin. This guy is just crazy!


    They were probably just yelling at Donald.


  68. Old, it was a joke account. My apologies. I have 7 different windows open right now and I should have checked before posting.*
    seagrl, the election in the UK and ours in Nov. are going to be white-male privilege’s last stand. They won the first, we need to stop the second.

    *FIX IT FAIRY removed the comment – but no worries, Trump parody is hard to spot since everything out of his mouth sounds like a joke.

  69. Enough.

  70. Do you think we can have a REMAIN/LEAVE vote in the US for Trump and Bernie?

  71. Ameica, we have been duly warned tonight:

  72. I thought that the British people were smarter than this. Oswald Mosley will be jumping out of his grave to celebrate with Donald Trump. Hillary is going to have to use all of her skills to explain to people why “our country first” nationalism and isolationism is not the way to go. Sanders’ “burn it all down” demagoguery dovetails with Trump;s bellicose xenophobia. The masses somehow think that if we get rid of all the trade deals, and all the immigrants, they will improve their financial condition, but of course they would be duped once again What of course worries me is the appararent triumph of pumped up nationalism, as opposed to globalism, of which Trump and Sanders describe Hillary and BIll as the embodiment.

  73. A run for President isn’t like a little league game where everyone get’s a trophy Bernie! You lost you self important goon! You don’t get to chose to be on the HELP committee or some other position or dictate the primary rules in the nominating process. Yes VotingHillary, ENOUGH!

  74. Bernie gave a speech on “where do we go from here” and yet he didn’t tell anyone where to go! You lost. Go home! It’s that simple!

  75. I liked David Cameron, and will miss him.

  76. I agree, William.

    This Leave vote is a disappointing result.

    There were of course many issues involved, and though I respect anyone here who may have supported the Leave campaign, to my mind this is a potential omen of a possibly dangerous trend.

    This was a victory for the kind of ultra right wing, xenophobic, isolationist movements that are gaining ground all across Europe, and, right here at home via Trump.

    I think the Brits made a big mistake – one which may cost them Scotland and Northern Ireland. Very soon, there may be no more UK. Just England all on her own. I wish her well.

    (I may have fought against those LobsterBacks in the Revolution, but I still have a soft spot for our Mother Country)


    I only hope that in November we in America will have the good sense to stem this troubling tide, and elect a moderate, rational, competent, experienced woman to lead our country and the world away from darkness.

    Hillary 2016 (Now, more important than ever)


    Time for the Democrats to flush this turd. Looks like thousands of his supporters want to sue the DNC. I really hope this is not true but is a parody site. But based on the turd that Sanders has shown himself to be and how his crazed sexists minions are it looks to be true.

  78. I love Bernie’s supporters. Thanks to them, every time the public wants to think about Bernie fondly or sympathetically, they give the public more reasons to dislike the bastard.

  79. Sources say that on Morning Joe, Bernie just said he will vote for Hillary.

  80. Is the UFT coming out now to support Hillary Clinton related to the sexist bs his supporters are doing?

  81. Poll from last week

  82. Thanks to Bernie, “Hillary Clinton in November” is trending!

  83. Wow … shocking news. My family in the UK said they voted for “stay.” They are devastated. And the British Pound has sunk to $1.35! I have been here for 26 years and I’ve never seen it that low.

  84. I have gotten to the point where I could care less if the turd endorses Hillary. If he does endorse her it want mean a thing. He will only endorse her to speak at the convention. I don’t care if his little followers vote for her or not. She will win regardless. Screw the turd and his followers. I am tired of Hillary treating them with a silver spoon.

  85. Hillary needs a united Democratic party to win the White House and take back Congress so she can have the leverage to implement her agenda.
    A clean sweep in November is what Hillary wants and what the nation needs. Anything and everything that makes that more probable is OK by me and anyone who can help is welcome.
    Obviously folks are entitled to their personal opinions, but when it comes to November, as Spock said to Kirk In “the Wrath of Kahn”
    “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few…”
    I want many many more Democrats in Congress, and many many fewer Republicans…

  86. Hillary will probably get slammed for prominent Republican endorsements like Bret Scrowcroft and allowing neo-con Robert Kagan to fundraise for her, but she is swinging for the fences which means getting every vote possible, left and right. This will help her pass her agenda, and, on that, she’s not moving.

  87. Bernie inches ever closer to an endorsement. Now he acknowledges he will actually vote for Hillary. That’s big of him. Gee, what a guy!

  88. Yes she does need a clean sweep. It is not only up to our girl, it is up to us, her supporters to get out there and help her. Donate, Volunteer, go door to door, talk to your friends and neighbors. Twitter, Facebook, whatever. We need to be warriors on our own. We should make it our mission to talk to at least two people everyday, have those two people talk to their friends. Time is getting short, we need to be out their talking Hillary everyday. We have Hillary locked up in my suburb. Now we are venturing outside of my area. We are not just counting on Hillary to get her message out. We are doing it thru street clubs, etc. Now that summer has started we are getting the students to help out. Make sure everyone you know is registered to vote.

    We can’t sit and just hope she wins, we have to make it happen.

  89. Bernie’s “endorsement” was short lived. He said he would vote for her on Morning Joe. One hour later he changed his tune:

    Cuomo: When the day comes in November and Sanders has to cast his vote, to whom does it go?

    Sanders: In all likelihood, Hillary Clinton.

    Cuomo: When you say all likely hood, what percentage?

    Sanders: I don’t want to parse words right now.

  90. I personally think that England should stand on it’s own if people from poorer countries are flooding into their country to take jobs and use their healthcare system.

    Brits are angry that helping other countries is draining their resources and leaving them in a worse situation.

    How is that different than amnesty to millions of illegals in the US? What are we doing for our citizens that are living on the streets?

    What are we doing for our citizens that have mental health issues that when in crisis, are only held overnight and then put out on the streets to try and cope?

    What about all the immigrants that go through the immigration process like most of our ancestors, doing it legally?

    I think the Democrats are really in the wrong for this and I hope Hillary doesn’t go off the cliff on this situation.

    Immigration is one of the reasons I think of myself as a centrist and not a progressive.

    No, I also do not like Rump’s position either.

  91. imust @ 10:37 am: Oh, Geez.

  92. Moon, I agree with you about Northern Ireland, but it may change now. Those in NI had the best of both worlds, the advantages of GB citizenship and free access to Ireland. As one of only two EU/English borders, the currently open border between Ireland and NI will end. Placing a physical barrier between the two regions will be psychologically and economically difficult. If Scotland leaves GB, that will be an even bigger push. Finally, if Dublin gains some EU gravitas as the largest English speaking city (and grabs some of London’s riches), NI may feel their future is to the south. Time will tell. As a US/Irish dual citizen who has never lived in Ireland, I admit that I have a romanticized dream of uniting the Ireland.

  93. VotingHillary, on June 24, 2016 at 1:43 AM said:


    Thank you, Fix-It Fairy and again, my apologies.

  94. This article does a good job of highlighting the insanity of Trump.

    With this exchange in mind, consider what the presumptive Republican presidential nominee said on Twitter this morning:
    “Just arrived in Scotland. Place is going wild over the vote. They took their country back, just like we will take America back. No games!”
    What Trump may not realize, or really even be able to fully understand, is that Scotland is “going wild” because Scottish voters overwhelmingly voted against leaving the E.U. Locally, people aren’t celebrating – because they see this as a disaster.

    Trump proceeded to hold a press conference in Scotland, against the backdrop of one of the most important political moments in the modern history of the United Kingdom, where he spoke at great length, and in great detail, about his new golf resort. The Republican candidate boasted about refurbished holes on his course, plumbing, putting greens, and zoning considerations.

  95. Hillary’s statement on Brexit results:

  96. Republicans have today proposed sweeping changes to the tax codes. It will simplify things, they proclaim! It will also (hold your breath) cut the individual maximum rate from 39% to 33%, and it will slash the corporate tax rate in half.

    And this is once again a stark reminder of the shell game they play. Under the guise of “helping the average American,” they try to take more money and benefits away from the middle class and poor, to give it to the rich. If this plan were to pass, we would soar into debt, bankrupt the treasury, and of course have to completely cut out the safety net. The Republicans will put up with Trump, in order to have a free rein to enact this dreadful tax code, and complete the destruction of the middle class. And yet so many voters are so unknowledgeable and foolish, that they vote for them, thinking that the Republicans are on their side. I do hope that in the midst of all of these other issues, Hillary consistently points out what electing a Republican president would actually mean. It’s so simple: every word that comes out of the Republicans’ mouths is just another attempt at misdirection away from their real agenda.

  97. Once again, the Rethugs and Trump are out to increase the wealth of the wealthy and give low paying jobs to the people that work for the wealthy.

    When Trump says wages in America are too high, what he is saying is that cheap labor is not cheap enough.

    No reason to go to college or try to better yourself if you are put in Trump’s cast system.

  98. So, Cameron has resigned. Talk of Boris Johnson as next PM. Noticed Johnson looks a lot like Trump…fears creep in again.

    Repeating to myself all day: “Don’t look at your 401K. Don’t look at your 401K.”

  99. shadowfax, the business about immigrants costing the UK money? Sure, they do. Much much much much less than they gain(ed) in profits and benefits from being part of the EU.

    If that wasn’t true, the markets would have bid the pound *up* after the vote to leave.

    It’s the same in the US. It’s easy to feel that illegal immigrants must somehow be costing us money. I mean, all those border fences and police stops, for starters. But without them, your lettuce would cost three times as much. All those healthy vegetables they keep telling us to eat. It’s immigrants who work in meatpacking plants. If their employers actually had to pay minimum, or God forbid union!, wages to the workers, beef would probably become something you’d eat on Sunday for a treat. Really, economists have costed this stuff out and the economy gets a big shot in the arm from all the underpaid labor of immigrants.

    That’s why it’s the *employers* who want to keep immigration laws pretty much as they are.

    Personally, I think our current system is a crime against humanity, and we should have proper wage and benefit laws for everybody and, yes, we should be paying what our lettuce costs. (Maybe then local farmers might even make a comeback.) But that’s a topic for another time.

    But all that said, I also think it’s a huge mistake to pretend people’s worries about their way of life is just something stupid or bigoted.

    I’m a third generation product of people who were refugees/immigrants since forever. The immigrants lose their way of life. If there are enough of them, so does their host country.

    Sure, the melting pot can be a good thing. Look at the US. Diversity is the main source of creativity and strength. But diversity and identity and heritage and melting are not easy or painless for anyone. Not the migrants and not the hosts.

    So it’s also not right to stuff it down people’s throats. People should have a say in that, and it’s a big mistake not to listen to them. It gets you stuff like the Leave vote.

    (I actually did a whole post on this over at my own blog on Acid Test. The Migrant Crisis And Standing In Line. And that was last September.)

    Anyway, I better quit before I write a book here.

  100. (“poind” Honestly. I meant “pound” of course.)

    FixIt Fairy visited you

  101. quixote

    I am not talking about immigrants, I am talking about ILLEGAL immigrants that have come to our country and may get amnesty from the Democrats. Nothing wrong if these people pay taxes like the rest of us, nothing wrong if they pay to get their healthcare like the rest of us do.

    What I am against is America not fixing problems with it’s own citizens first, creating enough jobs for those that can’t find work. Fixing the problem of affordable housing for those that are living on the street. I come to work each morning and walk by lots of people that are asleep on the sidewalks, in the public transportation, hiding in the bushes and have to beg for food.

    When we fix these problems, then we can afford to be generous with our illegal population.

    The homeless problem is terrible, many of them have mental health issues, all of the scramble to find shelter of any kind when the weather is bad.

    I don’t know where you live, but in the Bay Area, it is bad. In Hawii it is terrible. In NY it is terrible.

  102. Fyi, Dow ends the day -609 at the closing bell.

  103. So many of the “leave” side seem to have a stunned “I didn’t know it was loaded” look. Food for thought for Bernie’s protest voters.

    Also, it looks like the EU itself now wants Britain to stay not on the order of its going:

  104. That guy Boris Johnson has the same hair as Trump

  105. My 401k is in the crapper. I am so sick of this Effing Shit.

  106. Upp join the club. I am ticked.

  107. Barely recovering from 2008 and now this because some ignorant dumb shits voted for something they didn’t even know anything about.How dumb are they. I have been chatting with longtime UK online friends in another place and they are all very smart people and totally pissed at how stupid this is. Except one, who qualifies as a dumb shit ignoramus who would vote Trump if she were here for sure. You can BET Trump loves this. He’s buying in at low prices for himself. This kind of crash is great for shysters like him.

    Perfect Satire. “British lose right to claim that Americans are dumber”

  108. Yeah Nerd, maybe we can ship Bernie over to the UK where he can help the losers pretend they won.

  109. I hate to say this,I really do;but I have a feeling the only way Hillary is going to be able to take the hot air out of the Bernie Balloon is to accept Warren as VP. Should also knee cap the Bernie Bots as Warren was their original Goddess. I think ,maybe Warren can bring in a percentage of the leftover Bernies as well as many of the pissed off Union guys and Hillary will account for the rest. If Bernie persists in being such a dick,we may need to counter w/two vaginas. ( Which always seems to render dicks helpless). Apologies for the genitalia references.

    Can anyone think of a VP candidate that can contribute more to the campaign than Warren? I know,Brown gets us Ohio and Kaine.maybe Va…but who helps us w/PA ? Hey,I’m so concerned about Nov after the Brexit thing I’m willing to forgive Warren if she helps Hillary at all. Clearly no help from Bernie anytime soon,if ever.

  110. One can only hope, Upps.

    And can the Dem party please also borrow “Stand not upon the order of your going, but go at once” from the EU?
    (MIsquote from 1st comment fixed)

  111. Co-sign everything neetabug said at 9:38 AM:

    Yes she does need a clean sweep. It is not only up to our girl, it is up to us, her supporters to get out there and help her. Donate, Volunteer, go door to door, talk to your friends and neighbors. Twitter, Facebook, whatever. We need to be warriors on our own. We should make it our mission to talk to at least two people everyday, have those two people talk to their friends. Time is getting short, we need to be out their talking Hillary everyday. We have Hillary locked up in my suburb. Now we are venturing outside of my area. We are not just counting on Hillary to get her message out. We are doing it thru street clubs, etc. Now that summer has started we are getting the students to help out. Make sure everyone you know is registered to vote.

    We can’t sit and just hope she wins, we have to make it happen.

  112. This kind of crash is great for shysters like him.

    Yes Upps, Trump will probably have his kids scout out deals for him…

    A guy on CNN that is a Brit said that the youngsters in England are screaming mad that the older folks voted ‘Leave’. Seems like the vote for just England alone was really high to leave, while mixed in with the vote was Scotland and the Ireland’s that voted heavily to stay.

    Seems like many that voted to leave wanted to give the EU a “punch in the nose”, but didn’t realize how the economy would totally crash.

  113. Shadowfax, I know you’re talking about illegals. The things is, employers can pay illegals squat — the figures I’ve seen are on the order of $1.50 -$2 /hr for farmwork, and they have no recourse. That depresses wages for everybody.Why would they pay legal farmworkers, who could go to the law, minimum wage when they can get boatloads of illegals by putting a sign up by the side of the road? Why would restaurants pay more than just a smidge above farmworkers, when a thousand farmworkers are ready to switch jobs? And so on right up the line.

    The tech industry is doing the same thing with H1-B visas. Hire super-cheap techs out of Asia, who have no recourse against anything because their employers can cause their visas to be revoked, and then moan about not being able to find US citizens to take those jobs when anyone complains. Well, of course not. You can’t actually support a kid on that salary, or live without crowding five to a room, which is not a sustainable lifestyle for anyone, including Asians.

    Many of our social problems, especially homelessness, is actually made *worse* by the awful treatment of illegals, What happens to some of those techs, restaurant workers, you name it, when they can’t get work because the employers would *rather* higher powerless foreigners? What happens when they’re priced out of anywhere to live because landlords are making a mint off overcrowded sketchy rentals? The lower wages, lower benefits for everyone, (higher profits for business), are the reason we have so many social ills.

    Anyway, I just wanted to say I know the point you’re making, and say “it’s complicated.” I live near Oxnard in SoCal by the way. Drive past the strawberry fields and the people bent over them all the time. My neighbors were mostly Hispanic of both kinds, legal and illegal. All of them, every last one, were mindbogglingly hard workers, friendly, polite, and with the best behaved kids you’d ever want to see. Not sure how they do it.

    (And thanks to the Fixit Fairy! :D)

  114. Is there something in the water? On the news they showed a family who said they voted out, now they are sorry.

  115. Quxiote, just wanted to add to your comment that illegal employees also can’t file workers compensation claims. Many states are very lax on enforcing the law in this area anyway, but when an injured worker can’t even file a claim for fear of deportation, it makes them just that much more attractive to unethical employers.

    I worked for a short period loading and unloading trucks in a warehouse; the injury rate there was horrific, in part because the employer encouraged the macho attitude of the largely male workforce to lift more than was safe, and to not “complain” (i.e. file for health care for the injuries and short-term disability in order to heal) when the foreseeable broken ribs, arms, concussions, etc, happened. These were for the most part low wage legal workers who risked losing their jobs if they filed. Illegal immigrants risk being deported – that makes them that much more valuable to this kind of employer.

  116. You know what is so incredibly stupid about all this? Voters have been making the wrong decisions ie Obama and Cameron and now here we are and now voters are looking to demagogues like Trump to solve their own problems that they themselves created with their votes. And then you can throw the tea party in the mix who never had any interest in fixing anything in the economy. Paul Ryan is a clueless jackass. McConnell is completely inept. But these are the kinds of people you get elected to office when you believe government is the problem. There’s never a debate on what the government should or should not be doing but only a debate that seems to center around vague claims of reducing government.

    As far as Bernie goes does anyone even care anymore about him? He just looks like another sore loser wandering around in the desert screaming “revolution”. He’s an idiot. There are no more votes to be garnered for him, everybody has voted. The super delegates are not going to switch so here we are almost in July with the wacko still talking even though he has FINALLY admitted that he is not going to be the nominee.

  117. I appreciate all the excellent points made above, and particularly those of Quixote and GA6thDem, with regard to how we have gotten ourselves in this situation. It is so utterly frustrating to see so many Americans being tricked or confused, or simply too ignorant to realize how they are being misdirected by the economic ruling classes to vote against their own interests.

    To generalize, the “angry white males” are wrongly blaming immigrants and trade deals as the reason for their economic stagnation. But it is also unfair to mock and condemn the white males for being utter racists or xenophobes. In America, the economy crashed in 2008 mostly because of the greed of bankers, brokerage houses, and some people who thought it was great to buy houses they couldn’t afford, as long as the prices kept going up. Then after it crashed, the economic elites made sure that the banks were protected. And to do that, interest rates were artificially kept low, meaning that reitrees, and workers who made low incomes, lost buying power. And all the outsourcing of jobs by corporations led to less opportunity. So people got angry, but for some inane reason, they voted for faux populist Republicans who actually intend to cut corporate taxes,and destroy the safety net. So now people are even more angry, but they are stupidly drawn to Trump, who has not an iota of interest in any of them, other than for how they can enhance his wealth and power.

    In England and Europe, after the crash, they went for austerity, punishing the middle class and poor for the greed and corruption of the wealthy. But now the frustration is turned against immigrants and shadowy foreign entities; and too many people voted for something that will further damage their pocketbooks.

    For centuries, those in power have managed to gull and manipulate the populaces into supporting the aims of the very wealthy. It is almost, but not quite, stunning to see that tens of millions of people are going to vote for Trump, who would of course allow the corporatist Republicans to slash their own taxes, while further cutting the wages and benefits of the rest of Americans. Can Hillary do what Cameron could not, and somehow get through to enough of the angry white males, while she still maintains support for bettering the status of minorities of all types? She seems like the last hope for keeping things around the world from spiraling wildly out of control. She will get support from some of the more rational Wall Street types. But can she find the way to connect to at least some of the middle class and poor white males who feel cheated and frustrated after four decades of trickle down economic policies?

  118. I should correct that, as obviously the Clinton era economic policies were not trickle-down. Obama is not a supply sider, but his major appointments to financial positions were Wall Streeters. Very little has been done for middle class people since 2000.

  119. See if you can spot the difference. I sure as hell can’t:

  120. quixote

    I get what you’re saying.

    The poor and the working class are all struggling to make ends meet in our society.

  121. Interesting piece by Tony Blair. The extremes of both parties are joining in their ignorance.

  122. I am so tired of hearing the UFT moved Clinton left. Clinton is a Democrat not a socialist. It is wrong to transform the Democratic into the socialist party. In truth UFTs brand of socialism is not that European Socialism. But Cuba, USSR communism otherwise known as oppressive dictatorships.

    Like I said I’m not an extreme left person but a middle of the road type. Do we need more regulation and a better safety net, you bet. Is capitalism perfect no but it is the best system so far. Just my opinion.

    FixIt Fairy was here

  123. Thank you fix it fairy! 😀

  124. What does UFT stand for?

  125. Someone in England said they thought this was just a protest vote. Not the real thing. REALLY? Sounds like some voters here in the states. Some are wondering if this can be undone. Voters remorse.

  126. UFT = UnFlushable Turd.

  127. Hillary and Elizabeth Warren will be campaigning here in Ohio. Not sure where. I hope it is in my area.

  128. I demand a fair wage.

    FixIt Fairies Unite!!!!!

  129. I wouldn’t cross the street to see Liz. But that’s just me.

  130. I wouldn’t cross the street to see Liz.

    That makes two of us.

  131. Sophie, UK’s no different than we are. We have two ignorant ideological extremes too. And they actually are mirror images of each other.

  132. Voting Hillary, just wanted to explain what I meant by “lose all the freebies” in Northern Ireland, you get the nhs system, free healthcare, social security is higher than Ireland, and a host of all other tings. In ireland you don’t get that, you pay for high healthcare and very little in the way of social security. Thats why most of NI would never vote for a united ireland and also the fact that southern ireland dont want it either, too much cost and both sides would need to hold referendums.

  133. Brexit: Do you #Regrexit? UK voters voice doubt over referendum choice

    London (CNN)From Brexit to #Regrexit — an online petition demanding a second referendum on Britain’s decision to leave the EU is nearing 1.5 million signatures.

    By Saturday morning, 1,489,743 people had signed the petition on the official UK Parliament website. That number takes it well over the 100,000-signature threshold needed to force a debate on the issue by members of Parliament.
    A rush to sign the petition caused the website to crash temporarily due to the high volume of traffic.

    The petition, set up by William Oliver Healey, states: “We the undersigned call upon [the UK] Government to implement a rule that if the Remain or Leave vote is less than 60%, based on a turnout less than 75%, there should be another referendum.”

    That news came as some voters who had backed the “Leave” campaign took to Twitter to register their regret — adopting the #Regrexit hashtag.

  134. I don’t endorse everything this Rauch guy says, but he makes quite a bit of sense.

    How American Politics Went Insane

  135. Fair warning, though: if your Internet service is sub-par, like mine, you may be frustrated by the blizzard of ads. 😛

  136. As far as Brexit is concerned, it was a democratic vote, over 34 million people voted in one day, thats the same as Hillary and crabby old bastard got in the whole of the primaries.

    It was a free, fair and informed vote, lots of reading material, lots of debates and the decision was reached. The popular vote won by 1.3 million, that is not an insignificant amount.

    You must respect the democratic vote in that decision, it goes further than the economy, people were prepared for sme shock to do this, it was important, many feel in the UK, they are losing their identity with uncontrolled immigration. They UK people want the skilled migrants, not the criminals and schysters that with being within the EU, they cannot even deport, there has been case after case of rapist and murderers who cannot be deported be of their european right of family or human rights. Honestly, its quite breathtaking some of the idiotic things.

    Do you know the EU has never been able to pass a budget in all its years. Not one.

    Imagine if the US congress never passed a budget what would happen, money disappears into a huge black hole and no one can get any answer as to where it has gone.

    Honestly some of the things you cannot do under EU control is just literally WTF.

  137. Shadow and thats been exposed already, its very easy to say, I was a leave voter and i regret it now by pretending…..and anyone can put their name to that, eu voters, foreigners, anyone, its crap.

    This vote is concrete, there is no going back, it was a constitutional referendum defined by law, they all knew and followed the rules. It was a 50% + 1 vote to win. It was clear as mud.

    How would you like it if the GOP said, oh we dont like Trump losing the presidency, lets revote until we come up with the right result.

    The EU have made Ireland and Denmark and other countries revote until they come up with the right result then its miraculously no need to vote anymore.

    They lost, they need to get over it….

  138. Moon
    Seems like the regrexit folks didn’t pay attention to what their decision would do to their economy, at least for the short term.

  139. shadow

    They did, it was known far and wide. They all knew. Many many said, it had to happen, its the only way.

    and that guy you just posted, lives in Dublin, he couldnt even have voted in the referendum, he’s in ireland.

  140. We have two ignorant ideological extremes too.

    There used to be this horse shoe theory. I think it’s a circle and I think it overlaps.

  141. SCOTUS deadlock seen limiting Clinton options on immigration

  142. Sophie. I call Bernie UFT for unflushable turd. Cuz he doesn’t go down after flushing

  143. Moon, Scotland and Ireland voted on the referendum. It was for all the British Isles not just England. Scotland and Ireland voted heavily to remain in the EU and have both been talking about leaving Great Britain since the vote.

  144. Guess it won’t be Great Britain then. Just England.

  145. Holy Crap…

    Poll: Clinton widens lead over Trump to 14 points

  146. Ireland did not, northern ireland did which is part of the UK did, Ireland is not part of the UK and had no part in the referendum.

  147. ok, here is a geography and information post.

    The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the full name of the UK.

    The Republic of Ireland is within the british isles but is not part of the UK.

    Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain but is part of the UK.

    Keeping up?

    Northern Ireland does not want to be part of Southern Ireland and vice versa,

    Scotland is heavily dependent on the british pound and the public there are reluctant to leave the UK.

    Its a country of complexity, dont even try to understand the politics.

  148. Moon where did you see that poll?

  149. I don’t like Liz either. I am willing to see what is said at the rally. I am supporting my girl Hillary not EW.


    The Reuters/Ipsos poll shows Clinton leading Trump 47 percent to 33 percent. Another 20 percent said they wouldn’t support either candidate.
    A RealClearPolitics polling average shows Clinton leading Trump 45 percent to 39 percent.

    Trump’s slip in the polls comes after federal filings showed he has raised surprisingly little money for a presumptive presidential candidate.

    Campaign finance disclosures released earlier this week showed Trump’s campaign finished May with just $1.3 million in the bank and raised $3.1 million.

    Clinton raised $28.28 million in May and has more than $42 million cash on hand.

  151. Hey, everyone, pour yourself a big glass of your favorite beverage and click on the link provided by Ivory Bill @ 12:15 pm. Long but well worth the time. Interesting that the author sees Trump and Sanders as symptoms of the same disease. Very thought provoking. Thanks, Ivory Bill!

  152. The Reuters/Ipsos poll shows Clinton leading Trump 47 percent to 33 percent.

    —Thanks for the link Moon, I hope the divide stays wide all through the election.

    I absolutely don’t understand the setup or politics in the UK, that’s for sure.

  153. Thanx for the plug, BR.

    Here’s a quote from the article to which I linked above, which I think any Hillary voter can appreciate:

    Senator Bernie Sanders was an independent who switched to nominal Democratic affiliation on the day he filed for the New Hampshire primary, only three months before that election. He surged into second place by winning independents while losing Democrats. If it had been up to Democrats to choose their party’s nominee, Sanders’s bid would have collapsed after Super Tuesday.

    In his exercise of imagination at the beginning, Rauch suggests that If This Goes On, in 2020, the frontrunners might be Kanye West for the Dems and Phil “Duck Dynasty” Robertson for the GOP. 😮

    I think Anakin would speak for us all if that happened:

  154. moononpluto, on June 25, 2016 at 12:09 PM said:

    Thank, moon, for taking the time to further explain your post. I do truly appreciate it.

  155. Well, just got back from Trader Joe’s and when checking out, the cashier was in her 40ies and talking about how terrible Trump is. The customer in front of me was saying how she agreed that Trump can’t win. Then the cashier said, “Too bad the only choices we have left to vote for are who’s the least terrible of the two.”

    I said, “Well, Hillary won California, so the majority do not think she is terrible at all.” The woman in front of me said she voted for Hillary, I said, “I did too!” Then the woman in front of me said, “I voted for her in 2008”, I said, “So did I.”. And when the checker admitted she voted for Bernie…we both just gave her the you-loser-stink eye…and the cold shoulder.

    She could have gotten in a lot of trouble if we wanted to report her for talking politics…but we just left without really being nice to her in return.

  156. Well…another conservative icon leaving the GOP…

  157. I don’t have a fully formed opinion on the EU and the brexit mess, and haven’t had time to do much research on it. I think there are a lot of things to dislike about the EU: the way the powerful countries lord it over the smaller, poorer ones, the lack of accountability, their insane immigration policies, which has left the population unsafe, and the way the financial changes have helped the haves and screwed the have nots (like ours). So I don’t know if brexit was the best choice or not, but I can sympathize with those that are frustrated with the EU.

    Interesting article on why a lot of Europeans hate the EU. The waste of $ and abuse of power is breathtaking:

  158. George Will left the rethug party!?!? Shock! Wasn’t he a neocon?

  159. Blowing up the system, (ala Susan Sarandon) is never a good idea. You work within the system, change things you don’t like.

    Now what you have is chaos and uncertainty, and that is terrible for the world that we live in now. The chaos is not confined to the UK, it reverberates all over the world.

  160. Annie, if Will did this, it is just as a ploy to keep Trump from being nominated. He has consistently been one of the most irritating pundits of all time, with a dignified demeanor masking his very conservative views on all issues. There are Republicans who are going to try very hard to create a mass uprising to unseat Trump as the nominee. If Ryan or Romney somehow becomes the nominee, Will would go right back in the Republican Party. Will was all on the side of GW Bush, and the Supreme Court decision which handed him the election; and of course he was a very devoted Reagan supporter. Maybe he wants to start a new party which is exactly like Reagan’s, and call it something else. Whatever his goals I’m not impressed or gratified.

  161. OK,so apologies for my previous post;my inner frat boy escaped and ran amok.
    The ONLY reason I’m thinking Warren for VP is to haul in those union white guys and tantruming millennials. Though if Hillary’s numbers stay plus fourteen;who needs the whiny little twits?
    Still,Kaine? Come on;we can do better than a yawn;can’t we? I know he was a good governor/senator/speaks Spanish,etc.but he doubles down on the whole moderate/party player/wonky thing.
    I really think Hillary needs to go bold on the VP choice.It’ll also help down ballot and we NEED that Senate to get anything done. House would be icing on the cake. Hey,a girl can dream,can’t she?

    I’m looking for a landslide, your metaphor.

  162. On the Brexit, I am not versed in British parliamentary law, but it would seem to me that there could be another vote at some point; even if it would now be, “Should Britain jon the EU?” I don’t see how any vote, whether in Parliament or by national plebiscite, would be locked in forever. Laws are changed all the time. Now, one might say that it would be contrary to democracy to have constant revotes, and that is true. But it is also contrary to democracy to decree that a vote is pragmatically irrevocable. The details would be the question: how long a period would be required to at least potentially revisit the issue, presuming that the EU would be willing to invite the UK back in?

    I think that a real key will be whom the Conservatives pick as Prime Minister. If it is Johnson, he was in favor of “Leave,” so he is not going to call for another vote at any time. But if it is someone else, this might be a possibility.

  163. Correct GE, Scotland tried a referendum to secede from the UK and go it alone. The referendum lost. They voted heavily against BREXIT and prefer to remain in the EU. I have spent a number of years on a private board that is run by and predominantly populated with people from UK, specifically England and Scotland. Several of them are also with me on Twitter. We talk on the side quite a bit. So I know what they are thinking about Brexit, most of them have some pretty powerful brains and lives. They are horrified. It is also highly possible that Scotland will make another secession attempt in order to rejoin the EU. Scotland voted heavily against BREXIT.

    If you think we have a lot of bloodsuckers in the USA, we pale by comparison to the UK. There was some kind of delusion that, since immigrants get benefits, the natural citizens are losing out on getting More benefits. These are the people who help to guarantee that socialism will always fail. It’s never enough. In any event, they thought BREXIT was a good deal for them, but will find out that when the Pound loses value and you drive industry and the financial sector away, welp…….there’s just nobody left to support you anymore. They teamed up ironically with their natural enemies, the far right crazies. It’s kind of like the Bernies say they will do in voting for Trump. So they did indeed make it happen. Only most of them had no idea what Brexit really was (again just like Trump who also had no idea what it was until a few days before it happened). So now there is a petition across the UK for a redo because of the Day After Hangover. At this time, there are already two million signatures on that petition.

    It was the loss of Scotland’s referendum that made that dumb shit Cameron decide, Hey Let’s Put This To Referendum. Since he won against Scotland, he thought he could shut everybody up by putting BREXIT to a vote and watching it lose. Well he was wrong. And I hope that stupid piece of shit enjoys his new job selling shoes because nobody is going to want to know him for a long long time. Like forever.

  164. As far as immigration here in the US, I think the illegals who are already here and have families and jobs, and are not criminals, should get amnesty. Here in California, the Hispanic and Asian pops are part of our culture, and I appreciate them. But as far as future immigration goes, I would like to see it done very carefully. I would appreciate not letting in more Boston Bomber types and giving them scholarships and lower housing and food stamps and high paying jobs in the tech world. It feels like people from other parts in the world that want to live here believe they have a right to do so. The fact is California has BY FAR the largest amount of immigrants, legal and illegal. Texas is second, followed by Florida and New York. Most of our states have only a tiny fraction. Here is Calif, we are overpopulated. We don’t have enough road space, housing, schools, water, sewage capacity, etc., and the cost of living here is insane. You would not believe what my grocery bill is here, for three people. When I am in other states, I am always annoyed to see that our Calif produce costs less than it does here. And frankly, the overcrowding results in a diminished life experience overall. Traffic, smog, litter, graffiti, long lines everywhere. Last night, at the pharmacy, the pharmacist insisted on going over my meds with me, and she could barely speak English at all and gave me instructions that turned out to be exactly the opposite of what the doctor ordered, and which causes me illness and no sleep.

    I have colorful mixed ancestry myself and love the variety and richness of other cultures and always have. I used to think that globalization would be great, but now I see it being forced upon everyone, too fast, with little thought for consequences. The people that are doing well by it are the rich and and the big corporations. Hubbie and I have a large and varied acquaintance and frankly, none of us are better off than our parents were. We work much harder, and are far less comfortable. This reality is what drives people to support idiots like Trump, Bernoid, Stein & Gary whathisname; also, why the Brits voted for brexit. I wish they could realize that what we desperately need is a sane, brilliant moderate and Hillary is the only one.

  165. William, I can’t stand George Will and think he has a large share of them blame for the Iraq war and our shitty economy.

  166. One more thing. Two days ago, UK was the 5th largest economy in the world. Today it lost two places and it’s the 7th. Japan stopped dealing in the Pound. London, poised to be only second to NYC as a financial hub, is not under threat of losing scores of thousands of jobs as banks will need to pull out of there in order to avoid the complication of doing business with EU under a different system. Even destitute Greece, bailed out by EU, refused to honor the pound because “There is no identifiable exchange rate”. I have a sign one place of business put up and posting it here is just to effing much work .This is just the tip of the iceberg or the fallout around the world of Brexit.

  167. Blowing up the system, (ala Susan Sarandon) is never a good idea. You work within the system, change things you don’t like.

    Now what you have is chaos and uncertainty, and that is terrible for the world that we live in now. The chaos is not confined to the UK, it reverberates all over the world.

    You are totally correct. And let me tell you, we ain’t seen nuthin yet.

  168. William @ 7:22, interesting points. When I read that the EU leaders are now demanding that GB leave the EU immediately instead of waiting two years, my initial thought was that they were being rash and frankly immature and rude, like spoiled people that don’t get their way. I think it would have been better politics to have responded more like Hillary did, and resolve to look into the issues that would make a country want to leave, and maybe leave the door open for GB.

  169. This vote is concrete, there is no going back, it was a constitutional referendum defined by law, they all knew and followed the rules. It was a 50% + 1 vote to win. It was clear as mud.

    Don’t be surprised if you find yourself surprised.

  170. And finally, the bureaucrats in Brussels need to be run out of the EU on a rail. The setup here was a bunch of big shots, appointed not elected, ignoring the input of the countries.

    You don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you do, you get the Bernie Plan. UK just got the Bernie Plan and the rest of us are about to feel it in a big way. Many doors just slammed shut on UK. It’s not pretty.

    The idea is, you don’t kill a fly with a sledgehammer. You fix what’s wrong. Brussels is what’s wrong. And I am sure a whole lot of other countries are ripping them a whole new asshole as we sit here and act like we know everything.

  171. Upps, agree with you and imust that the whole brexit thing was rash and irresponsible. What I’m saying is that I can sympathize with their desire to regain their former quality of life. I grew up in a lovely little spot called Westlake Village. No doubt imust, William, and Quixote know about it. Until the 90s, it was a middle class area with a few rich areas around it. My parents had a lovely large home, new cars and four kids on one salary. Oh, and a condo in Hawaii. Now you have to be loaded to live there. Hubs and I are more educated, work 3 jobs, have 1 kid, crappy old cars and live in a tiny townhouse. We keep wondering if we should retire expat. The republicans ruined everything for the middle class, starting with Reagan, which I was always saying back then. Check out the wapo article I linked upthread about the EU. They’re pretty tyrannical also.

  172. Bill if you use either firefox or chrome you can load an addon that will dump all those ads. Just saying.

  173. WordPress must have some of those idiotic Bernouts doing “improvements”. The post editor is making it more and more difficult to write and edit things. I have just had a fight for a half hour over something I once did in a few minutes, thanks to morons who think they know everything about everything, can’t fix anything that’s broken and perpetually ruin what works.

  174. Socal, we all want our old lives back. But I am not even slightly sure things like Brexit will even remotely help make that happen.

  175. Found this on Drudge

    A new poll shows Hillary Clinton running ahead of Donald Trump
    in Arizona, where a Democratic presidential candidate has carried the state only once in the last 64 years.

    A survey by Phoenix-based OH Predictive Insights found Clinton taking 46.5 percent support over Trump at 42.2 percent.

  176. Incidentally, thanks to Super Duper Idea Brexit, 401ks dropped in value by $100 billion.

    In case nobody realizes it, this is the retirement saving methodology of what’s left of the middle class, and also the instrument that makes it possible for many seniors to survive.

    Oh yea, this was a great idea.

  177. Upps, post that sign you mentioned on Twitter and then post the Twitter link here. So much easier.

  178. Annie, perfectly said: “a sane, brilliant moderate.” There just aren’t any of those, outside of Hillary, at least in this country. It is a tragedy that many more do not see this, and that she has to struggle and battle and overcome all this nonsensical belittling and derogation. Radical policies from the Left or Right, are certainly not the answer

    The American voters deserve much of the blame for where we are; even though one realizes that they are constantly duped by the big money and its media instruments. They kept voting for conservatives who took away benefits, and stifled economic growh. They finally elected Clinton, who left us an actual surplus and a booming economy–and they squandered all of it by voting for “good old boy” George Bush. The Democrats mistakenly chose Obama over Hillary,and didn’t get nearly what they should have in terms of economic gains; plus they enabled the rise of the Tea Party, where voters angrily and proudly vote for people who will make their lives much worse off.

    Of course you are right that the economic life of the middle class and even upper-middle class person is much more limited than it was in the 1960’s. The Right is only concerned about the very wealthy. The Left is to my mind too much concerned with helping immigrants and the minority poor. The end result is that the White and ethnic middle class gets nowhere, and no one really speaks for them. But Hillary’s policies could help everyone; and yet she is not getting the overwhelming support which could help her do that. And too many people simply do not understand economics, and they vote against their best interests. I totally agree that people like Will and the various fervent supply-side cheerleaders vastly contributed to the virtual raping and pillaging of the middle class. And now here is Paul Ryan, whom the media considers as the sane voice of moderation, but who is in reality an Ayn Rand devotee, whose policies would lead to a Depression, or desperate insurrections from a starving populace.

  179. Westlake Village is indeed a very pricey area, but when you were growing up, was it more rural? When I grew up, my mom didn’t work, and we lived well on one salary. But we only had one car, living too far out would have been difficult, especially without the extensive freeway system we have now. I recall the 70’s being the turning point in the economy. Nixon era then Ford with inflation. (Remember the WIN buttons? Whip inflation now!) Gas “shortages” and other “shortages” led to higher prices and no jobs. Then there was Jimmy Carter (who I liked at the time) but the malaise……oh my. Reagan came in and that’s when we became the “new shiny objects” “everyone can be rich” generation. Didn’t Trump rise during the 80s?

  180. Yeah I was going to do that but i forgot, Voting.

  181. I would appreciate not letting in more Boston Bomber types and giving them scholarships and lower housing and food stamps and high paying jobs in the tech world.

    Amen. Twice.

  182. OK,so apologies for my previous post;my inner frat boy escaped and ran amok.


  183. imust, yes, In the 60s & 70s when I was young, Westlake was much smaller and surrounded by ranches that are now rich neighborhoods. It was a blast to grow up there. Lots of great hiking, horseback riding and not far from the beach. People were neighborly back then, and yes, its pretty “snooty” now. There were always lots of celebs living there and lots of filming going on. Lots of wild parties and community picnics by the lake on July 4th. It was a fun place to grow up back then.

  184. CA gals, don’t even get me started on Raygun. He ruined California.

    Raygunomics, trickle down poverty.

    We have gone fershitten ever since. I love this state, by the ocean and mountains, but I can barely afford to live here now.

  185. I lived in the nice part of the San Fernando Valley, when there were orange groves, horses and no malls nor smog.

    Moved to Hawaii to go to college and get out of the smog then moved to the Bay Area after I bummed around Europe for 6 months. Those were the days.

  186. LOL Shadow, the only orange grove left is one that’s just for show on the CSUN campus!
    Oh and Raygun as governor! Oh my! He destroyed public ed.

  187. Raygun also destroyed the mental health care system. He was terrible for CA. We still feel the after effects today.

  188. Birdgal, I saw that and laughed myself silly. First, they claim they are “expecting” as many as 2 million. Not happening. Second, the GE will be over before it even sees the light of day. Third, a judge will toss this out on its ass as the fraud suit it is. But those attorneys are going to make Bernie mad as they steal his $27 monthly stipend from his die-hard supporters.

  189. Voting, I took it with a grain of salt, since it didn’t seem to have any real basis, and seemed more like an attempt to cause uproar. They really believe that the election was stolen from them, and that the DNC is responsible for all the voter fraud. In the first place, they are using the wrong terminology. There was rampant voter suppression that affected both candidates. Hillary suffered voter suppression and lost votes in caucuses, especially Washington and Nebraska, where she won the primaries, but lost the low turnout caucuses. She would be even further ahead, if she had the pledged delegates from the primaries. The Samders supporters don’t see that. Apparently, the problems in Arizona and New York only affected his voters and not hers.

  190. Absolutely Birdgirl and Imust, he did ruin public education, why no one can afford to go to college without spending 30k – 250k depending on being an undergrad or a Ph.D. student.

    Mental health,yes…now they think it’s a big deal if someone goes manic and they grace them with not more than 3 days in a facility.

    Wouldn’t surprise me as to why there are so many mass shootings for people with severe mental health issues.

  191. Exactly, Birdgal. I am frankly so over Sanders’ “special snowflakes” and their thinking just because he ran, he gets to play bully to our first female POTUS candidate.

    I will be THRILLED when the convention is over and we can just flick these little pests away.

  192. As far as George Will goes, where has that idiot been for the last 30 or so years? I’m so tired of all these Republicans all of a sudden developing a “conscience”. Maybe it’s because I live in the south that I have seen it up close and personal for so long but what Trump is saying is something you hear around here all the time. So are all these Republicans like Will suddenly smart or have they been okay with all this until Trump came along? The latter would be my guess.

  193. George Will. We don’t want him either.

  194. Let me get this right, if I’m wrong I apologize, Moon. Are you here saying that Brexit is a great idea?

    And do you by ANY chance realize what this just did to the market, specifically to seniors who use their LIFELONG savings in retirement funds to fucking LIVE? That they are COMPLETELY innocent…….and do you have any SYMPATHY for them?

    Just asking.Because your nastiness on this board is palpable. Others are trying to have a civil debate with you and you are coming back at them with a bulldozer. Food for thought.

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